Sudhir Sarnobat
@SudhirSarnobat
Followers
893
Following
330
Media
780
Statuses
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Work In Progress...a Parvenu...a Tsundoku too...
Bombay.....not Mumbai...
Joined June 2009
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As SIPs are for Financial Wellbeing, IIPs (Intellectual Investment Plan) are for Intellectual Wellbeing. I set aside a fixed sum every month & exhaust it diligently to subscribe newspapers/magazines, buy books, support/subscribe to podcasts I listen to.
Most times I overspend..😀
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This is a story about bureaucratic extortion that was rampant in SME manufacturing sectors almost a decade back. An excise officer got his transfer orders. He decided to make a quick buck before leaving his station. He visited this unit for a cup of tea. Which sane industry +
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Normal Person - Capacity
MBA type - Bandwidth
Normal Person - Bribe
#SeenUnseen
Podcast Listener - Rent Seeking
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Its year-end & I am recounting the highlights. Biggest is I got hooked onto
#SeenUnseen
...Listened to more than 20,000 minutes of content (few shows I listened 2-3 times also)..It's difficult to choose my favourite episodes among these 205 gems but here is a list of 20 episodes +
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What recurring themes have u observed in
#SeenUnseen
?
My List😄
1 Incentives
2 Politics is downstream of Culture
3 India's liberal constitution imposed on illiberal society
4 Jagdish Bhagwati-China is profit-seeking while India is rent-seeking
5 Cass Sunstein's Group Polarization
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You get the new car out of the showroom & it depreciates immediately. Same is the case with benefits. We announced a Birthday Leave policy for our team members where they will get paid leave on their BD, their spouse's BD, their kid's BDs and 50th, 60th & 75th BD of their dad,+
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A fantastic page for interesting illustrations..
For samples, i took few screenshots…but the complete gallery is awesome…
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Newsletters are a great source of knowledge. Sometimes even better than books. Few advantages.
1. Like someone's writing, get more of the same. Don't have to buy a full magazine subscription (the iTunes of reading)
2. We love getting served. These come directly in your inbox. +
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Hi Guys, here is the list of books
@sidin
tweeted today….made for myself but u all can benefit…This will be updated…
For every like on this tweet I will tweet the name of a book in my small library. Starting with the less famous ones.
#BombayFever
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Started listening to
#SeenUnseen
regularly fm Ep 156 & haven't missed any episode (barring 2) after that. In the last week of March, I decided to start fm 1st episode & cover up the backlog. Today, I finished the 100th episode. I am indebted to
@amitvarma
for expanding my brain +
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It takes huge guts to make a movie like
#October
… Hats Off to
@ShoojitSircar
… and it looks like he has extracted the best from
@Varun_dvn
… Fabulous acting… The movie is like reading a engaging novella at slow pace… Go watch before it goes off the theatres ..!!
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A refusal to pay Rs. 5000 cost the man hugely. The interest on 5 Lakhs (Govt doesn't pay you interest), the lawyers' fees & his own productive time lost in this battle.
This is how corruption became a norm.
We all treated such payments as the small cost of doing business in India
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As a middle-class Maharashtrian boy, I was raised as someone who should not talk about oneself, never ever in public. That cultural influence is absolutely strong. But only
@amitvarma
, with his perceptive questions, could make me talk about my life. And he made me do that for
He built a career and a life through sheer force of will — and he applies that intentionality to everything in his life.
@SudhirSarnobat
shares some invaluable life lessons in episode 350 of The Seen and the Unseen:
Listen in, so wonderful!
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I loved this thread so much that I copied all tweets & saved in Evernote to send it to my son… here is the public link to the note
Also immediately bought the book referred in second last tweet
@kindle
thanks
@amitjulka
Over the last few days, have noticed a lot of twitter people discussing why Indian engineers/MBA types tend to mostly swing rightwards. Also, does the inclusion of a few humanities courses make a difference? Read on.
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@amitvarma
Now searching utensils to be cleaned …clothes to be washed…other sundry work that can extend to 3 hours plus…😄
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#SeenUnseen
&
@amitvarma
has been enriching my life since the 1st episode. So how does one repay the debt? Support the show & spread the word..
As Fanboy, here is my tribute to 200 episodes...i am decent at presentations & hence, made a 2-min clip on this journey...Have a look...
Episode 200 of The Seen and the Unseen is so special for me.
The tables are turned, & 22 of my past guests + some fans put me in the firing line.
@srajagopalan
steers the ship.
We discuss poker, podcasting, politics, policy & the personal.
Listen:
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Awesome List of Books …Shall buy one by one in next few days…I have a habit of making book lists & storing in my notes for future purchase…If you do same, here is the readymade list of all 21 recommended books…😄 Thank you
@kaul_vivek
& Happy Diwali…
So here's is a slightly nerdy Diwali book gifting/buying list. If you are that kind that is...
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@paraschopra
Music is played in the background so positive attention not needed...Movies need visual attention...can't let them run in the background....
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I have bookmarked this tweet & when I watch people who are struggling in life for basic lifestyle, root for RW politics, I am going to remember this tweet..watching those people will no longer lead to anger, disgust or contempt..it will bring a devious smile on my face.. :)
I live a cushy metropolitan life with every material luxury and social privilege life could wish for. If you're an underprivileged voting saffron just to give me or my kind, a "Burnol moment," I adore your innocence.
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@GulPanag
Reservation has got nothing to do with this, it’s colonial hangover which also has merit cause they do hv better systems & skills
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I get Comp off?
3. My wife's BD & my son's BD is on the same day. Can I get Comp Off?
4. I have only 1 kid (our policy offers BD leaves for up to 3 kids). Can I get two additional Comp Offs?
Friends, It's not easy to satisfy people. 🙂
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What a marvellous, Kahlil Gibranque piece by
@natashabadhwar
…A must read for this weekend..
Our children are not our assistants. They are not here to prove us right. They are not here to validate us. They may do it anyway, and we can thank them for it.
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Came across this brilliant podcast from
#seenandunseen
while listening to the old ones (have finished 1-53 now)..
@amitvarma
's regular guest
@srajagopalan
talking about "Caste in Modern India".... Never have heard someone connecting the dots of land reforms, labour reforms & +
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2nd dose of CoviShield done...Amazing experience at Jupiter Extended Vaccination Centre at Thane...entry to exit in flat 45 minutes that include 30 mins of holding period...Well Done
@TMCaTweetAway
@DigiThane
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I see too many people focusing on cash backs, reward points, purchases during sale period etc etc. I guess too much of focus on buying efficiency makes them lose sight on improving earnings. Focus on how to earn better and you don’t have to bother too much on how to spend…
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Did
@amitvarma
's The Art of Clear Writing course last year in April. Since then, I have been writing regularly in scratch books & journals. Lots of mundane stuff but I kept at it.
Finally, I decided to take a jump & build a newsletter.
This is 1st post
+
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Don’t bother abt these Critic’s reviews of
#JaggaJasoos
Just go & watch it. It’s a different experiment tht will warm your heart..Book now 😀
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Been away from Twitter for a few weeks consciously but had to resurface just for the appreciation of this E275 of
#TSATU
with
@hussainhaidry
. This is that timeless conversation (I have already listened to it 3 times, all five hrs) which makes you chuckle, tears you up & many +
We live in times when all Indian Muslims are forced to be aware of their Muslimness.
@hussainhaidry
joins me in episode 275 of The Seen and the Unseen to talk about his life, his art and these difficult times we live in:
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Extraordinary conversation...in the same league as the episodes with PBM or Karthik Muralidharan..So many
#TIL
moments..Islam in India has not primarily come from rulers but from traders is a great point & the rootedness of Indian Muslims in local tradition is so apparent, +
What is it like to be Muslim in India?
@ghazalawahab
joins me in episode 216 of The Seen and the Unseen to discuss the history of Islam in India -- and the tragedy of the present moment:
I got *so much* deep insight from this conversation!
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Thanks to timely advice by
@LiveFromALounge
, I could recover my 1.6L of ticket money spent on
@jetairways
flight that was cancelled… I had to fight with my CC issuing bank for 6 months but it was worthwhile… Thanks a ton Ajay…
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Wow..!!! Hats off to
@AmexIndia
‘s thoughtfulness…they checked my recent card swipes in Sri Lanka and called me to check whether I am safe.. this is the difference between all other card services and the Amex card service …
@LiveFromALounge
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A tale of bravery that exposed Ranbaxy’s fraud…Must listen for everyone.
Being from industry, understand the complexity of R&D to Production scalability challenges. Also the evolution of stringent USFDA norms in recent yrs (21CFR Part 11)..many years back,I witnessed something +
When we pick up meds from our chemist, we assume we are getting what we pay for.
That trust may be misplaced.
@d_s_thakur
joins me in episode 245 of The Seen and the Unseen to share the story of the Ranbaxy fraud, & the shoddy state of Indian pharma:
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Where mere " brushing the teeth" becomes "cleaning of royal pearls" & "being pregnant" is "royal womb is being occupied", I loved this 2Hr20Min
@amitvarma
#seenunseen
podcast with
@UnamPillai
... Kerala and the Ivory Throne (…) is based on a book by Manu +
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Sad news but 2 economic lessons
1.Opportunity cost (Scarcity of time)-This is personal & respect that
2.Sunk cost fallacy-Having built website,executed tech part of podcast & with 14 episodes under belt, one would drag it further. They didn’t..
Thanks for these Goodbye learnings
Sigh, I hate to break this news, but this is it for Econ Central.
@kaul_vivek
& I are ending this show for now.
We explain why in Episode 15, our goodbye to our listeners:
Many book recommendations in this!
Thank you for all the love. ❤️
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So
#TSATU
by
@amitvarma
has shifted its gears from E300. Many heavyweights came as guests..
@pbmehta
,
@natashabadhwar
@TeestaSetalvad
@tanejamainhoon
@vikramsathaye
@roshanabbas
..Then the showtime went up multifold with Shanta Gokhale (8+ hrs). But TSATU is not just about +
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When
@amitvarma
says that he is making
#SeenUnseen
shows for audience even 30 years hence, you feel sort of elated listening to it because you are kind of 30 years ahead of time on your content consumption ..!! Isn’t that interesting ..!!
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@amitjulka
This resonated with me a lot.. despite of being an engineer, I am no way right winger.. and the son is liberal arts student (History & Global Politics) .. he has enrolled for higher studies without thinking about job prospects ..so now you can get the drift..!!😀
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verdict. But then the bureaucracy made it difficult to get the refund. That took another 9 months. Finally, a new upright lady officer got transferred to that office & she promised him the refund in one week. But the office staff there continued his harassment & didn't make +
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While listening to
@BShrayana
on
@amitvarma
's
#TSATU
, one insight that came out was about the agency being exercised by females at lower strata when they too are earning members of the family.
Remember these two instances.
This one is around 2007. A close friend from Mumbai +
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Finished listening to this enchanting & illuminating conversation...twice.. After all,
@karthik_econ
is my most favourite guest on
#TSATU
. This is a masterclass on State Capacity, Governance Challenges and Federalism. Loved the way he uses the most Indian word, “ Mota Moti”, +
In 1947, few people gave us 75 years.
Bloody hell, here we are!
It is up to us to make this country the best version of itself.
@karthik_econ
joins me in episode 290 of The Seen and the Unseen to discuss one of our problem areas: the Indian state.
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While staying at club in Nasik, I tip Rs 50 every time I go for breakfast or get my dinner served in room. Yesterday night, when I called up the restaurant on ground floor, I overheard manager introducing me to someone as “woh pachaas rupayewale Sudhir sir ka call hain”😁
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Offend is also a desire to Humiliate"...Like
@ghazalawahab
, I, too am a non-activist but going to buy at least 10 copies of this book & gift it to 10 acquaintances who are on-fence bigots...If I can convert even one of them, India will be better off...You do that too friends🙏🏽
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The possible alternative to getting an employment that gives 2L per annum wages is not having a gainful employment & go starving.
The replies reek of privilege & show complete lack of awareness of ground realities in India..nevertheless, valiant efforts by
@deepakshenoy
…
Amazing that even a 16000 rupee earning (post fuel) is considered way too low.
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only if there was some work to be done. Most industry owners apply this convenient integrity principle because "Kya karein, dhanda karna hain") The officer went back empty-handed. Two days later, the business owner received a demand letter of 5 Lakhs from Excise Dept. The owner +
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of the demand amount to govt. before filing the case. This person had to deposit 5 lakhs & then proceed with the legal route. The Tribunal favoured the department & this businessman had to take the case to High Court. Finally, after 4 years of struggle, he got a favourable +
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owner would say no to it? Before leaving, the officer asked for Rs. 5000. The owner asked what for. Officer said I am transferred & we won't meet again, so treat it as a goodbye gift. The owner said NO. If there is no work done, why should I pay? (this owner was OK to bribe but +
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the payment. Seeing this businessman in her office even after one month, the lady officer called him & asked why was he there. "No refund yet," this guy said. The lady officer called her staff members & gave them a dress-down. This businessman got the cheque in the next 1-hour.+
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Follow
@iScrew
for understanding Gujrat Political landscape & history…wonderful wonderful commentary with daily tweet storms..!!
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So the person responsible for my financial wellbeing talking to person responsible for my intellectual wellbeing...wow... listening to this is going to be a fun...
Is the stock market an engine of our economy or a casino disconnected from reality?
Does it require deep thinking or mad gambling?
@deepakshenoy
joins me in episode 208 of The Seen and the Unseen to share his insights on investing — & life:
Much fun!
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A cousin from F&B industry was complaining about Zomato valuations. Told him that valuation stories are similar to belief in Gods. As long as enough believers are there, temples will continue to overflow & IPOs would be oversubscribed.
It's all about good story-telling...!!
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Though India got its independence in 1947, for 70s kids like me, the economic freedom brought in by 1991 has a stronger impact. This conversation of India's journey between 1947-1991 is Development Economics 101 Lesson (what's that
@srajagopalan
🙂) for all. For those rooting for+
The 1991 reforms lifted over 250 million people out of poverty.
@srajagopalan
&
@ajay_shah
join me in episode 237 of The Seen and the Unseen to look back at life before 1991, what we had done wrong and why those reforms were *such* a big deal:
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@baxirahul
1. The multilingual sign boards (sensibilities of 60s & 70s Bombay)
2. Not many Parsis living in the building. Probably, immigrated to US or Canada
3. The yellow light..(Parsis rarely used while fluorescent tube lights, theirs were mostly tungsten filament lamps.)
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@virsanghvi
2019-20 30,692 Crs
2018-19 27,258 Crs
2017-18 25,141 Crs
2016-17 37,052 Crs
2015-16 33,514 Crs
Total = 1,53,657 Crs
Those are
@bmcmumbai
‘s annual budget figures for last 5 years…
And we get this bad quality infra which fails every year.. again & again..
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everyday & 297 are junk). So here is what I did. I got a separate email ID with great spam control (i use
@heyhey
) & now my all emailers come there. Here are my notable Emailer subscriptions.
Mostly on substack.
1. The India Uncut by
@amitvarma
2. Gimme Mo by
@mohitsatyanand
+
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Through
@amitvarma
's
#TSATU
, I learned about the Takshashila Institution (TI) & its various members. But this episode is special because it throws light on the journey of
@acorn
, TI's founder. An illuminating conversation where while discussing public policy, they talk about +
The weekend is here. You're feeling meh. Where is one to find a sense of purpose?
Try listening to this episode with
@acorn
, whose work at the Takshashila Institution is so, so important:
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@SloganMurugan
I remember Cafe Naaz of Pune Camp area where they would never ask you how many Samosas you want to order. They would bring in 12 of them & take away those which are not eaten. That's how they managed the tally. 🙂
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Must follow this tweet with a ❤️ ….it’s easy for us privileged to be quarantined … what will the poor do who has to venture out every morning to make his daily wages..?? Also if you fear infections from your maid / driver, give them leave but let that be a Paid Leave..!! 🙏🏽
I feel bad for everyone in the food business during this crisis.
But worst hit are poor street vendors whose families go hungry when business collapses.
Do what I do.When you see a vendor, buy two plates of what he is making.
You don’t have to eat it.But help him make a living
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waited until the officer's transfer & then met the new officer. Looks like the new officer was told about the incident during the handover. He too stood up for the honour of the department & dared the businessman to go legal. So he went to tribunal. But the law mandates payment +
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Whao…!!
@amitvarma
has got
@Nidhi
for conversation on
#seenunseen
… listening to the show right away..!!
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End of month & IIPs done for this month...added
#EconCentral
by
@amitvarma
&
@kaul_vivek
to my portfolio & started supporting it. Though I don't agree to their idea of gifting each of them separately, I like them & their podcast so much that I have compromised my principles... 😄
As SIPs are for Financial Wellbeing, IIPs (Intellectual Investment Plan) are for Intellectual Wellbeing. I set aside a fixed sum every month & exhaust it diligently to subscribe newspapers/magazines, buy books, support/subscribe to podcasts I listen to.
Most times I overspend..😀
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So the Monday morning travel to our Nasik works was spent in the fine company of
@amitvarma
&
@BajpaiKanti
...didn't know how time flew while listening to the interesting journey of Mr. Bajpai as a diplomat kid.. 2nd review listening is happening now...
#TSATU
E234
It's not hard to understand why India & Pakistan are at loggerheads.
But why are India and China fighting?
@BajpaiKanti
joins me in episode 234 of The Seen and the Unseen to share his fascinating Four Ps framework for understanding this problem:
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mom & both in-laws. After great applause & excitement for the first 3-4 days, we started getting queries. Great insights into human psychology.
1. If the BD is on a public holiday (15th Aug or 25th Dec), will I get Comp Off?
2. I have twins & I would be missing one Leave. Can +
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What a conversation..!! Finished major part during 9 km walk today... You can rely upon Amit to bring out best in the guest &
@ChinmayTumbe
doesn't disappoint...Like his earlier book talks about married women leaving maternal home & going to husband's house as biggest migration +
Pandemic, lockdown, masks, state failure, state overreach.
India’s been here before, & it’s been worse.
@ChinmayTumbe
joins me in episode 205 of The Seen and the Unseen to discuss the lessons we can learn from the previous pandemics that devastated us:
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@kaul_vivek
Why should it be rescued? People will get jobs (albeit with little hardship), the slots will be taken by other airlines. As long as there is market for air-travel at right price points, someone will provide that service & win market. It just that Jet couldn’t play that game well.
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Another timeless conversation...Partition would be 100 years old in another 27 years & this talk would still evoke same emotions then..of loss, of being uprooted.
I also played a What-If scenario, looked around & wondered what would I carry if I go thru similar circumstances..
Decades after the trauma of separation, Partition remains with us.
@AanchalMalhotra
joins me in episode 195 of The Seen and the Unseen to speak about her powerful project of excavating the memories of survivors through the objects they carried with them:
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@devduttmyth
Oh..!! I didn’t know all those sketches are drawn by you. Apart from being a great author & storyteller, you are an awesome sketch artist ..👌
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What.A.Fcuking.Insane.Conversation. Dude…!!
Just blew my mind..
Detailed tweets after second round of listening with notes ..!!
I have another Hero to look upto now..
He carried cables on a film set.
He teamed up with friends named Arvind & Manish to save Delhi.
He started a media company & told advertisers to get lost.
Yes,
@AbhinandanSekhr
is my guest in episode 254 of The Seen and the Unseen:
Much fun!
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So I am in Frankfurt for the last few days for a tradeshow. My two colleagues were bored of eating pasta every day, so yesterday we went to this nearby Indian restaurant Aman for dinner. The place was packed (Looks like Europeans love Indian food), so I asked the manager if we +
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This is an appreciation tweet for Netgear India. A few days back, based on a tweet by
@NGKabra
, I bought a Netgear Mesh system for my Nashik home. As I was not sure which model to buy based on the size of the house, I used their chat support. Great support on chat for +
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@ToReachSukku
@tmkrishna
You should also listen to this podcast of TMK with
@amitvarma
...amazing conversation ...they talked about this book & many stories associated with it.. hope you will enjoy it...
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@amitvarma
i am an old man Amit…😄 faster speeds reduce the comprehension…its better i do household work for 3 hours that would keep me fitter…and the mind will shine anyways…its
#SeenUnseen
show..
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A bartender from Frankfurt could take me for someone who can afford a Euro 650 per peg whiskey itself was a big win & that has sure boosted my self-esteem. But i still remember the bartender's sullen face when he had to take the bottle & exquisite glasses back where they belonged
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Started going to office since last two weeks.
At office, I have a small book rack where all books are on “Bombay” theme.
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@amitvarma
He was MLA from Bhandup-Mulund constituency … pretty popular & vocal but had fall out with leadership when he vehemently opposed ShivSena.. didn’t get ticket & now into political oblivion …won’t dare to speak because he is too scared to give opinion…wary of leadership wrath…
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17. Simplanations by
@vivekraju93
18. Jabberwocky by
@sonaliranade
19. Updates by
@ajay_shah
Awaiting newsletters from
@david_perell
,
@srajagopalan
&
@Schandillia
That's my list. What are your recommendations? Do let me know.
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Today is the day you must listen to this episode of Seen & Unseen podcast by
@amitvarma
&
@srajagopalan
… this is where I learned the Quid Pro Quo between Judges & Govt and why USA doesn’t retire their Supreme Court judges …
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Wonderful conversation...!!
1. Listened to podcast
2. Watched Satya
3. Listened to the podcast again
4. Bought the book
5. Wrote a small piece -
The gangster film & the city film are two genres that took a while to evolve in Bollywood.
@yooday
joins me in episode 241 of The Seen and the Unseen to explain why Ram Gopal Varma's Satya was such a seminal work:
Film-lovers will enjoy this one. 🙂
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@TMCaTweetAway
Hello, for many people with BP & Diabetes, doing a 5 km walk is a medical advice. If these walkers are following social distancing guidelines & wearing masks, you should allow them to walk for health reasons. Walking helps build one’s immunity which is important in this pandemic
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3. Anticipating The Unintended by
@puliyabaazi
(Pranay Kotasthane & RSJ)
4. Bretton Goods by
@PradyuPrasad
5. Eye on China by
@theChinaDude
6. Ground Truths by
@EricTopol
7. Gyandemic by
@bhalomanush
8. The India Cable by a few well-known journalists
9. Insight by
@zeynep
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Son who is student of IR & PolSci doesn’t read any Indian publications because he says they suck at world news coverage. But honourable exception is “Anticipating the Unintended” by RSJ &
@pranaykotas
… Is that snobbery or indicator of better choices ?? 😁
Anticipating the Unintended
#141
is now up. This week, RSJ & I write about:
- US Credibility Debate and India's options
- Our History & Hindu Civilisation,
- A Framework to analyse analyses, &
- Pakistan's Cadmean victory
Read, share, and subscribe:
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3. Most of them are free currently.
4. Great for reading habit-forming.
5. You get it directly from the Creator. No gatekeepers, No middlemen.
But one big problem with them is they get lost in the barrage of emails that we get on a daily basis. (I get around 300 emails
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Hello
@OfficeOfNG
, What's the point of building these 4 & 8 lane highways with lakhs of crores of taxpayers' money and then fining the same taxpayer Rs. 2000 for driving at 78 KMPH because this highway has a speed limit of 50 KMPH?
Happened yesterday on the Nashik-Mumbai highway.
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There must be many unseen advantages of hosting
#seenunseen
podcast. But I know one…I envy
@amitvarma
that he gets to meet & befriend gem of people like
@tmkrishna
,
@barunsmitra
& Ajay Shah… what clarity of thought & simplicity in behaviour these people carry…
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Why should you listen to podcasts while exercising, driving or doing chores?
Just 1 hour of listening (no visual attention that videos need) per day for 300 days in year & you would listen to around 36 Lakhs words. That’s equal to around 48 full-size books.
It’s no brainer..!!
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Had
@amitvarma
not been a columnist & podcaster, he would have had a great career in Sales…he is so hooked on to the concept of right incentives for desired actions that he would make any sales force perform fantastically with his deep insights on incentives…😀
#seenunseen
E176
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Read the thread…Great example of how Govt Dept can resolve complaints & avoid spread of misinformation…
Good job
@TMCaTweetAway
@TMCaTweetAway
@mieknathshinde
@DrSEShinde
80 year old Dr. Sheth died in Thane. His wife and grandson tested COVID +ve and admitted in Kaushalya Hospital which has mosquitoes and hygiene issues. She is 75 years mother of Yagnesh Sheth (9820059535).pl shift her to a good hospital
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At his elemental best…Thanks for penning down what we felt but couldn’t articulate like you
@PritishNandy
.
@PritishNandy
: The hysterical campaign of vilification against Bollywood is an attempt to distract people from Narendra Modi’s failure to handle the coronavirus pandemic and India’s sinking economy.
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Why I became a Podcast Listener?
1. Can listen while doing other routine stuff i.e. Driving, Working out, Cleaning the house, Washing utensils (productive use of time)
2. Visual attention is not needed so your eyes are free
3. Allows imagination which a video generally kills +
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@joybhattacharj
During my college, Someone had done English Standup version of these dialogues … “Ab goli kha” was translated as “eat the tablet“ and “Bach gaya Sala” was “saved brother-in-law”….
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