RailUK Forums
@RailUKForums
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One of the biggest and most popular forums for discussing the railways in the UK. Including fares & ticketing, infrastructure, tours and general discussion
Joined April 2009
The 20:00 LNER from Carlisle is mostly carrying fresh air, however the Guard has constantly shouted through the PA that any passengers for the earlier cancelled Northern trains will be charged £21 for taking this train. Is this really how to run a railway @lner?.
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The original tickets are still vallid; passengers cannot simply be abandoned.
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@merseyrail are publishing *FALSE* information regarding penalty fares. - Travel on off peak tickets at peak times is NOT a PF.- Using e-tickets without printing them = totally valid and legit.- Changing trains doesn't require you to miss a connection
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And now @lner have decided to join @Se_Railway in spreading misinformation regarding the use of two or more tickets for one journey, which is completely legitimate. Hopefully @DavidHorne can arrange for LNER social media team to be suitably briefed, to avoid this happening again?.
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Passengers surely cannot be denied at an exit purely on the basis that the exit does not have barcode readers. @tfl staff must allow passengers through, unhindered; this is a rail industry problem and customers must NOT be inconvenienced and turned back to another exit!.
@purves_liam @RailUKForums @TfL Hello Liam, so it looks like in this case, because it is London Underground managed, you cannot scan your bar code ticket to enter or exit the station (from this entrance). There is work going on to minimise the impact this has on our customers and allow barrier staff to scan.
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@LNER Both Northern and LNER are Government-run; who benefits from this arrangement?. @transportgovuk @TransportFocus @TransportCttee.
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Alternatively @gc_rail are *obliged* to re-route passengers onto alternative services; if GC refuse/fail to do so, then they are required to reimburse passengers who purchase tickets for alternative services.
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If you are unsure if you want to travel at around 1800 or 1900 on this journey (London-Newcastle on Sat 17 Feb), LNER will only sell you an Anytime fare, at £192.80. Yes that is the only fare with any degree of flexibility on that Saturday. No Off Peak. No Semi Flex.
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The Guard on @LNER's 1758 NCL-KGX is threatening to charge TPE passengers who would otherwise be stranded. This would be a breach of NRCoT Condition 28.2. The Guard is unfamiliar with this condition and is apparently "too busy to check". Poor behaviour by LNER, again.
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Why were the only available fare for this journey today over £190, @lner @DavidHorne ?. This would previously have cost no more than £87 until you scrapped Super Off Peak. @seatsixtyone what are your thoughts?
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Why are @LNER guards charging customers, who were on previously delayed services, who missed their connection through no fault of their own?. @DavidHorne is it really the case that your Guards are instructed to behave this way?.
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If a ticket is issued in e-ticket format, and is permitted on/via Merseyrail, as per the relevant National conditions, then Merseyrail are contractually obliged to honour the ticket, whether Merseyrail like it or not. This message from @merseyrail does not reduce passenger rights.
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LNER ticket office / retail staff are under strict instructions to sell the Anytime fare. LNER are unhappy that our booking site ( ) will offer flexible fares for this journey for under half their price. Apparently we are "distorting" the market.
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Not so; both these companies (which are run by the Government) are bound by the Ticketing Settlement Agreement and National Rail Conditions of Travel, and are also supposed to follow policies such as Passenger Information During Disruption, and so on. .
@RailUKForums Northern is a private company.LNER is a private company.Neither is required to carry the others without agreement….If you’ve bought a restricted ticket, it is restricted.
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Is this a poor attempt at a parody account?. Or is this a classic example of a very bad false equivalence comparison?. (there is no direct aviation equivalent of the TSA, NRCoT, RDG/ATOC etc; nor are Ryanair/Easyjet Government owned!).
@RailUKForums If your ticket states ‘Northern Only’ where in there do you see ‘valid on LNER services’? Ryanair and EasyJet fly to and from the same airports, doesn’t mean you can use a Ryanair ticket on an easyJet plane. The customer is not paying LNER to be on that train!.
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This is wrong; firstly, any passenger whose delay could reasonably be anticipated to be over an hour is *entitled* to be re-routed, as per the relevant legislation. Furthermore, this statement goes against the policies agreed by all train companies:.
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@Se_Railway @thegamer6701 This is completely incorrect. Passengers MAY use a combination of tickets for one journey. Our website sells such combinations and you are obliged to honour them.
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@Dave_H_King @LNER This is completely incorrect information; you should consider putting in a complaint, so that the ticket office staff can be provided with re-training, as appropriate.
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Disgraceful treatment of passengers; @lner and @gc_rail refuse to work together and the customers suffer. It is not acceptable. LNER are obliged to adhere to 28.2, while GC are obliged to re-route passengers.
@hnrwbell @RoryKleinveldt Hi, we do not. Please purchase a new ticket for their service and claim a full refund for your Grand Central ticket. ^SG.
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Is this a good idea?. If you don't buy in advance, the cheapest ticket from Newcastle to London could be over £190, even on a weekend!.
@Inv_Pete If it is severe disruption and we're advising customers to not travel (and as such removing tickets/reservations from sale) then yes the option to purchase the new flexible fare wouldn't be available. ^Charlene.
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Unbelievable that train companies still invent rules that dont exist regarding split tickets and attempt to renege on their contractual obligations!. @SteveWhiteRail perhaps you can arrange a briefing to all staff that passengers *may* use combinations of tickets for one journey?.
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@merseyrail More MISINFORMATION from @merseyrail
@HarryBurr_ All third party tickets purchased need to be printed before travelling on our network, including third party tickets that have a QR code. ^Claire.
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@mitchell_hurd @merseyrail That's not correct. The remedy for this is an excess fare, as documented in the Conditions of Travel.
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@bens2477 @merseyrail True; train companies in Britain have a habit of this, though Merseyrail are on another level. This sort of nonsense doesn't tend to happen in countries that run railways well, such as Switzerland, Czech Republic etc.
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@lner what does “we’re not doing the Manors thing any more mate” mean?. We understand your ticket office staff won't proactively offer these cheaper tickets, to people going to Newcastle. However if someone specifically asks for it, they should get it!.
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Does Merseyrail not consider it worthy of making posts accessible to all?. Notwithstanding the misleading nature of your message, you have not added a text alternative, for the benefit of blind / partially sighted people. Is this an oversight?.
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And now @greateranglia is the latest TOC to be exposed for talking absolute nonsense. Their staff at Liverpool Street made up rules that do not exist; when a complaint was made, customer service also repeated this nonsense. Can anyone get them to behave?.
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How hard would it be for TOCs to train their social media staff in the very basics of the National Rail Conditions of Travel?. Is it really beyond reasonable expectations?.
@DJBSass @AvantiWestCoast Hi Dan, you would need to speak with Avanti as they may have ticket acceptance in place but they would need to confirm ^SC.
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TOCs such as @northernassist are out of control; they constantly make mistakes, with impunity, while legitimate customers face threats of prosecution. - The ticket was valid.- An itinerary was held.- If not valid, an excess should apply, NOT a penalty fare.
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It's not 1st April, is it?. Meanwhile, a sensible operator such as @RailService allows people to board at the advertised departure time. Why do we have to suffer such awful operating companies in the UK?.
We're making some changes to the departure boards at Glasgow Central. From tomorrow, train information on display will be removed 90 seconds before departure, instead of the current 60 seconds. This change will help prevent falls as people run to catch a service. @NetworkRailGLC
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Maltreatment of passengers by train companies such as Northern is indeed widespread; the problem is indeed the policies/rules, and lack of safeguards in place. Northern's own revenue handbook includes major errors; the company's revenue department is not fit for purpose!.
@jamie_wallis @northernassist I don't blame the conductor personally - evidently it's widespread, and it looks to me like a policies/rules problem rather than staff training one. Equally, pre-COVID I could get the same line and a conductor would simply sell me a ticket on the train if I lacked one. It's silly.
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Northern are happy to receive negative publicity; they are Government-owned, and their funding is guaranteed by taxpayers. This case is merely the tip of a huge iceberg; maltreatment of Northern passengers by the company has been rife for several years now, but is getting worse.
@SamMarkWill @northernassist So interesting that @northernassist is letting this blow up. The account is tweeting away on other issues. This is the first impression of Northern Railway for some of the millions of viewers of the thread.
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Who do these train companies think they are?. Something needs to change. The status quo is unacceptable.
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This is completely unacceptable @AvantiWestCoast . Will you be conducting a thorough investigation into this incident, and a review of how frequently your staff incorrectly charge people?. If only there was an effective regulator, ombudsman or watchdog. @seatsixtyone seen this?.
@CrossCountryUK Hello Peter. We have just arrived at Euston for Avanti staff to tell us the above is incorrect!! There is no ticket acceptance. Please can you explain why we have now just had to pay £200 in order to get to Manc, following your incorrect advice! Why have we been lied to?!.
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@RichardWellings And yet they work extremely well in continental Europe, and beyond; why is that?.
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Ah, the good old supermarket analogy!. If only there was an NRCoT ( ) equivalent for supermarkets. But, as there isn't, the analogy falls down at the first hurdle.
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On delayed 20:05 KGX-YRK, the @lner guard is going above and beyond, including advising passengers regarding alternative connections, such as advising of the onward @northernassist cancellation for people going to Sheffield & advising to change @ DON instead of RET. Great to see!.
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@dnj_ramblings @simondebrux @R7COO @Jcheunginhin Our site does allow for a specific seat to be selected.
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Thanks for the apology, but it is not accepted. The rules need to change. @louhaigh @TransportCttee @TransportFocus @CBTransport can we set up a meeting with members of our forum, to get the rules changed, so that rail passengers are no longer penalised when trains are delayed?.
@RailUKForums This is due to them not having a valid ticket to travel with LNER as LUMO had not made ticket acceptance with LNER. I understand the circumstances are not ideal, and I do apologies for this. 2/3.
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@northernassist If only we had an effective passenger watchdog, ombudsman, or regulator, who actually:.- had the required knowledge.- was proactive.- was effective.- carried out 'mystery shopping'.- had the necessary powers to take enforcement action. @RailOmbudsman @TransportFocus @railandroad.
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Any thoughts @DavidHorne?. Are your staff encouraged to make such decisions?.
No way should passengers be penalised for something that isn't their fault, especially when a gap of three hours between Northern services from Carlisle to Newcastle will have inconvenienced many passengers already. TOCs must collaborate better during disruption on other TOCs.
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Surely not. ?!. @DavidHorne is it *really* the case that your staff are instructed that if multiple trains by another DfT OLR operator are cancelled, your guards MUST charge for new tickets?. If so, this is a major scandal and must prompt serious questions of @transportgovuk.
@RailUKForums @LNER Don’t shoot the frontline. If we get told “Right you need to charge customers because of a Northern only ticket” then that’s what we have to do. Don’t shoot the messengers 😂 i don’t agree with the current system but we aren’t the people who make these choices.
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@MattWillisRail @LNER @DavidHorne No announcement stating the doors at the rear of coach L are out of use, this resulted in passengers for DAR being over-carried to YRK. Clearly this Guard is more interested in announcing incorrect charges, rather than announcing helpful information. That's not acceptable.
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@LNER @quiensabia there is no requirement for any passenger to purchase a new ticket; the law does require LNER to re-route any passenger who would foreseeably incur a delay of more than 60 minutes, with all efforts made to reduce the delay to a minimum.
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There is *no* requirement to locate a conductor prior to boarding in these circumstances to avoid a "fine"
@citruspony We do advise having a ticket before boarding. If you prior to boarding locate the conductor and inform them you haven't been able to buy due to ticket machine and staff, and ask if you can buy from them to avoid a fine. Please can you send a photo of this so I can report it?^AH.
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@tfl what training do you provide to barrier staff at Elizabeth Line stations, in respect of National Rail ticketing?. Do you have any safeguards in place, to ensure passengers are not denied travel and/or provided with incorrect / misleading information?.
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Yet another inappropriate act by @northernassist staff, this time at Wakefield. Denying a completely valid ticket is valid, and taking the customer's name and address. Disgraceful behaviour!. Can *anyone* hold Northern to account?.
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Again another example of a train company providing inappropriate advice; unless the replacement tickets are cheaper (which is unlikely at short notice). The rail industry should implement ticket acceptance; if this is not in place, LNER must re-route the customer, in these circs.
@quiensabia Hello John, you would be entitled to a refund on your existing tickets from your point of purchase. Unfortunately we haven't got acceptance in place and so you would need to get a new ticket with an alternate operator who is able to run if you need to travel tomorrow.
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Freightliner Intermodal after trainee drivers across UK: http://t.co/sK3co8KlIP.
http://t.co/Vxr617BOu2.
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Why do you sell more expensive Advance fares than Off Peak fares @AvantiWestCoast ?. What would happen if someone bought the more expensive ticket, and caught the wrong train? they'd be treated as having no ticket at all, is that correct?.
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@AvantiWestCoast @conradlandin If you have a ticket for Avanti and an expected delay of over 60 mins, if LNER charge you for a new ticket, you are entitled to a refund of the replacement ticket from Avanti.
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Alternatively, if the cost of a new ticket is greater, passengers can purchase a reasonable alternative and bill this to Grand Central.
@robertson_ste If you purchase a new ticket to travel with another operator, you'll be able to claim a full refund on the original ticket via your point of purchase. ^LA.
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Yet another unlawful Penalty Fare, followed by an unlawful prosecution, by the malicious @merseyrail . The appropriate action would be to issue an excess fare, of just (half) the difference between fares; it is completely wrong to issue a penalty fare!.
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Exposed: @EastMidRailway @SW_Help @TPExpressTrains @tfwrail @Se_Railway @merseyrail @northernassist @TLRailUK use a Penalty Fares appeal body, "Penalty Services", who make misleading statements and wrongly upholds incorrectly issued Penalty Fares:.
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@TBallam GC probably wish they could stop all re-tweets!. Or forum threads, for that matter:.
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Why do @CrossCountryUK price journeys such as York to Stafford so high, and so slow? . The options are £100 for journey starting with a bus via Castleford, to travel on XC, or a slow journey via a walk across Manchester for £75. We charge less for a simple change at Tamworth
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"Please note that there is no ticket acceptance on Gatwick Express services at this time". @SouthernRailUK @GatwickExpress you are the same company; can you explain why you are saying this & what it means?. Is this a threat to charge disrupted passengers?
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@christianwolmar If you want flexibility when KGX is shut, it's £190 for NCL-KGX. No Flex available. Staff are under strict instructions not to sell any other ticket. LNER are unhappy with our website for "distorting" the market !.
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Why did @TPExpressTrains issue a Penalty fare to someone who experienced disruption, causing a missed connection, who simply caught the next Leeds to Garforth train?. Are Penalty Fares appropriate to be issued to disrupted fare paying passengers?.
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It is a shame @lner and @DavidHorne did not carry out proper consultation; and that they did not listen to the valid objections to their incorrect actions. However, it is great that LNER have finally been made to do the right thing; perhaps LNER will learn some lessons from this?.
😊 Good news 👏 Lowther Terrace gate re-opens 8pm Friday 19 April ✅. Thanks all concerned for their patience and support on this - it's been a right headache - and props to @KilbanePete getting @CityofYork to pushback and find a way through with @LNER 👍.
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Reminder to @lner that you are obliged to re-route this customer as their delay would be excessive otherwise. If you do not re-route them, you are liable to pay any reasonable additional costs incurred by the customer. @DavidHorne are you aware this is happening?.
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@NeilThomas1966 @Captain_Deltic The Governement are encourating modal shift from rail to air, by a combination of factors:. - reduced air passenger duty* for domestic flights.- rail fare price rises .- abolishing return fares & abolishing off peak fares. (* source: ).
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@jonamuth1987 @merseyrail You are mistaken. Travelling on a time restricted (eg. Off Peak) ticket at a restricted time is an excess, under NRCoT 9.5. As for not being "able" to check barcodes, that is the company's choice/problem. As @Captain_Deltic would say, "what matters is the message not the medium".
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Another instance of @merseyrail refusing to adhere to the National Rail Conditions of Travel; they incorrectly issued a Penalty Fare to a customer for travelling on the wrong geographic route. This should be an excess fare.
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A reminder @LumoTravel you *are* required to convey customers who'd be otherwise stranded. Please provide appropriate training to staff on board your trains. cc @AnthonySmithTF @CBTransport @railandroad @TransportCttee @RailOmbudsman @TransportFocus @rail.
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Strawman argument based on a completely false premise. The account description includes "Fan of LNER - backing all decisions made. ". That explains a lot. !.
@MCRBeerlad @RailUKForums @DavidHorne @LNER How can LNER take responsibility for Northern cancelling a train? If LNER said yes and extra customers piled on you might have a train with people packed in like sardines. It would have been safer to wait for the next available train and make a delay claim with northern.
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Or, if the new ticket is more expensive, GC needs to reimburse the cost of the new ticket, instead of the original being refunded.
@steve07820991 There is no other option i'm afraid, unless you buy a new ticket to travel with another operator and claim a full refund of your unused ticket back from your point of purchase. When we asked for ticket acceptance with the other operators they declined. ^JM.
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This is FALSE information. If any customer books with us, we will offer split tickets where cheaper; if any such customer is then given false information by a train company, please let us know and we will assist them and ensure the train company adheres to their obligations.
@Simon_Humphrey Ah I see, so this'd be what is known as a split ticket purchase, rather than a through ticket and I'm afraid that wouldn't be eligible for a refund due to the ticket type and the fact that train on our network is still scheduled to run. Sorry about that Simon. ^Kirsty.
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@rupert_airbear @merseyrail was it an actual ticket, in e-ticket format? if so, the Penalty Fare has been incorrectly issued; the customer must be refunded. or was it a booking confirmation email relating to an uncollected paper ticket? if so, was the ticket office open or closed at the time of travel?.
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Where a passenger is traveling from Glasgow to Blackpool, changing at Preston, any delay between Glasgow and Preston in no way invalidates the Preston to Blackpool leg of the journey. It makes no difference if this is on one ticket, or a valid combination of two or more tickets.
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LNER are attempting to deny customer rights under NRCoT Condition 28.2.
@RailUKForums Ticket acceptance would still need to be organised by the Train Operating Company you're booked with as there is a formal process to follow between Train Operating Companies. ^Charlene.
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Govia Thameslink Railway @TLRailUK are prosecuting an innocent passenger because the company lacks knowledge on how @tfl contactless works. Should private train companies retain their powers to prosecute customers?. @LonTravelWatch @RAIL @ABCommuters.
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This is just the tip of the iceberg; train companies such as @northernassist and others have been up to all sorts of tricks, including issuing Penalty Fares for incorrect reasons, even when tickets were valid. Can anyone hold these companies to account?.
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@northernassist @citruspony If there is no ticket issuing facility at the origin station, a "fine" (Penalty Fare) cannot be issued. There is no need to "ask" to be able board; it is a right.
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Earlier today FGW operated a 3 car HST on a stopping train between Reading and London, seen here at Paddington. http://t.co/9d1yCxTpHj.
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@anthony0bn our ticketing website will offer massive reductions in those fares, as we find ways around the unfair fares.
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@LNER @quiensabia if the customer is forced to purchase a new ticket, it is the new ticket - not the original - that should be refunded, by LNER. (if the new ticket is cheaper, the customer can of course choose to refund the original, but that is the customer's choice, not LNER's).
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More incorrect claims being stated by @GWRHelp staff at London Paddington:. Can anyone hold @GWRHelp to account?. If only we had an effective ombudsman, watchdog or regulator for the rail industry!. @RailOmbudsman @railandroad @TransportFocus.
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@merseyrail are, again, acting unlawfully. if only there was an effective passenger watchdog, ombudsman or regulator. .
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@penaltyfare @AvantiWestCoast @conradlandin and the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO), which some train companies - especially Avanti - *really* dislike complying with!. However, their attitude to customers not adhering to legislation can be very different; Avanti are very selective regarding legislation!.
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This is so true; rail passengers are being maltreated by certain train companies (such as Northern) on an industrial scale.
@SamMarkWill @northernassist This has shades of Post Office….
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Poor behaviour by @CrossCountryUK :. Sadly, the rail industry regularly rejects valid Delay Repay claims on a regular basis, and makes it very difficult for customers to assert their rights. If only there was an effective watchdog, ombudsman or regulator!.
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@railfollower2 @ScotRail That's not correct at all. Indeed our ticketing site will sell such combinations for one journey, which is entirely in line with the National Rail Conditions of Travel.
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CrossCountry need to stop blaming @SW_Help and simply pay this customer the Delay Repay monies due:. @CrossCountryUK if you refuse to assist the customer, they will ask the @RailOmbudsman to intervene, who will force you to pay up.
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The @AvantiWestCoast customer service representative has incorrectly denied a refund; we have assisted the customer in drafting a response. If Avanti do not resolve the matter promptly, we will continue to assist the customer in escalating the matter.
@RailUKForums Hi there. This customer would need to get in touch with us directly for us to look into this further. - Kim.
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It seems @TransportFocus have just picked up on an issue our members have been highlighting for years:. Can anyone hold companies such as @AvantiWestCoast and @lner to account?.
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Is this really an acceptable way to treat an elderly person for using the 'wrong type of railcard' @TPExpressTrains ?. Is the intention to deter people from using trains?.
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@mariaoliviaking The bus from Bedford is deemed to LNER 'operated'; the train from Huntingdon is LNER. But, other than that, what you say is *exactly* the point being made here. But is that fair or reasonable?. It's a price hike of more than double.
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