Elijah
@PossibltyResult
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thinking out loud | building integrated applications @dualityxyz @Neutron_org
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Yield space is one of the coolest AMM invariants: it's elegant and useful + it adds a 3rd dimension (time) to CFMMs. I wanted to dive deeper so made a lil desmos. Feel free to play around w/ it.
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1) We developed an optimization algorithm for
@SushiSwap
and the results are wildly interesting (as in saving millions of $ interesting). The gif shows the algorithm frame by frame as it searches for and eventually settles on a near-optimal liquidity allocation...
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This story is long overdue.
How an Ethereum maximalist ended up in Cosmos and why Ethereum maximalism is stupid :
@spreekaway
As an aspiring equal opportunity fudster myself it makes me sad that even after redacting your point it still ratio’d me
It feels like some have lost the plot in exchange for bag pumps
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CoWSwap, 1inch fusion, and UniswapX all push liquidity off chain and rely on centralized intermediaries and trust assumptions for execution quality.
Can give a million reasons why this is a weak take.
Stop trying to make on-chain CLOBs a thing, we already have solvers/RFQs which is 95% the same thing
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It's concerning how much crypto has failed to actually remove the "middleman"
@TrustlessState
someone trades on Uniswap in 20 years
value will not simultaneously go to a builder, filler, wallet, web frontend, L2 sequencer, suave validator, L1 eth burn, L1 mev burn, rollup DAO, paymaster, relayer, trading protocol DAO, AMM LP, 3rd party DA provider, L3, LST protocol, etc
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Live feed of L2 devs finding out that users care about airdrops and not bridge security
@pseudotheos
Yeah, it's getting kinda frustrating
There are rollup teams working to securely scale Ethereum and they have a hard time attracting users, and then you have stuff like Manta creating a rollup out of ducktape and attracting a billion in TVL in a few weeks
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If the
@PrimitiveFi
launch didn't satisfy your fix of free-range, oracle-free, DeFi derivatives I got some good news for you anon. There's still a lot left to build.
A desmos drop on replicating monotonic payoffs👇
maf and explanations:
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DEX aggregators have a major flaw.
They rely on snapshots of state that are outdated by the time a route is executed.
Since the best routes will always be the first to get arbitraged, there’s even an incentive to deprecate them before the trade gets executed
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Vitalik : Don't overload Ethereum's consensus layer *cough* Eigenlayer *cough*
Eigenlayer : ETHEREUM ACCELERATION !!!
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One advantage in Cosmos' microstructure is that new Cosmos chains are bullish for existing Cosmos chains.
I don't believe the same is true for L2s which need to take on the costs and latency of routing through Ethereum to tap into other L2s.
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MEV in 4 ez steps:
1) Grab some scotch
2) Alexa play Amy Winehouse
3) Arb
@PrimitiveFi
4) Profits
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Is there any literature on the oracle problem in DeFi?
i.e., you want to incentivize a bunch of agents to accurately report data, but as soon as you use that data for smtn w/ money there's an incentive to misreport
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Alpha leak:
@GuilleAngeris
@tarunchitra
@alexhevans
OHM paper reportedly titled "Everything is a Ponzi Scheme if You Squint Enough"
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Men used to go to war.
Now they go on twitter spaces to debate whether LPing on AMMs is selling options or market making.
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Cosmos rn
@AustinAdams10
Clever smart contract design but it doesn't push the bleeding edge of on-chain exchange
ABCI++ in Cosmos is a much more exciting, comprehensive version of v4's hooks
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A massive opportunity for the Cosmos stack is to serve as decentralized solver infrastructure on Ethereum.
If you're interested in speccing how this might work and why it makes a ton of sense feel free to reach out.
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BREAKING : Mysterious block builder bribes proposer to censor time-sensitive transactions
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Have heard some people suggest the Cosmos Hub offer rollup sequencing services
The shortest path to doing so would be for the Hub to invest in ZK Cosmos SDK and have ICS chains post data to Ethereum, Celestia or some other DA layer
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Fun fact:
@sunnya97
and
@valardragon
‘s work on consensus and full stack AMM applications was a big inspiration to
@dualityxyz
entering the Cosmos.
Hoping that overtime we can make an impact and give back like they have
Another day, another Cosmos chain.
err... 2 Cosmos chains!
Welcome
@dualityxyz
and
@DFlowProtocol
to the Interchain!
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Wrote a blog the other day on the Cosmos Hub.
If you take something away from it, it should be that the Hub needs to take a deep breath and refocus.
This starts with stabilizing governance through rebuilding trust and realigning incentives.
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It truly feels like crypto communities are thinking about and working on the frontiers of mechanism design and finance
Academics love it because it actually gives them a sandbox to play in instead of just one to think about
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It’s worth addressing a few things with respect to the intents brain rot :
1) Intent. Based. Swaps. Are. Not. RFQs.
An RFQ is a request for quote. On an intent based swap, users don’t request a quote. They sign a message with a slippage tolerance before getting one.
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Super relevant to the discussions on oracle MEV on Ethereum right now.
*Takeaway* : Cosmos continues to emerge as the best tech to build (actually) decentralized and efficient apps with.
Enshrined oracles will be available to smart contract developers on
@Neutron_org
soon™️
Slinky is going to usher in a paradigm shift in the perpetuals market
Blockchains that have enshrined oracles will have more efficient, more liquid perps markets with better prices for users
Build your perps protocol with Slinky or lose to others who will
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(In my opinion) it's way too early to be talking about competition in Cosmos.
The
@dualityxyz
community is way more excited about growing the pie through building cross-chain partnerships with
@osmosiszone
and other chains than competing for the existing slices
@GoldenStaking
It's about time we see serious competitors to Osmosis emerge.
incentives from ATOM community should be directed at the AEZ to support and push adoption forward.
Osmosis was day 0 for liquidity. LSM is day 1.
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My hottest take is that Ethereum will need to become part of the Interchain (~Cosmos), and not vice versa, to succeed in its vision long term.
If your network has a token, it can’t be credibly neutral.
This is ultimately why if Ethereum is serious about their vision for credible neutrality, they will eventually prioritize participation in networks of networks not tied by any tokens.
It’ll be called the Interchain.
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@Hyperlane_xyz
is live and settling Celestia rollups on
@Neutron_org
today
The shortlist of Modular Blockchain tokenless protocols that I’m very bullish on *scheduled* to launch in Q1-Q2 👇
@EspressoSys
@movementlabsxyz
@union_build
@Hyperlane_xyz
@AvailProject
@fluentxyz
@eigen_da
@squidrouter
@alt_layer
@Calderaxyz
@fuel_network
@RiscZero
…
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I find cryptography way more magical than AI
Neural nets work in nature but cryptography has no equivalent
going through AI company pitch decks makes you desensitized to literal magic
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Everyday I wake up and say prayers of thanks that ABCI++ is coming and that we’ll get to build with it
Hard to understate how much innovation this will bring to DeFi
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Cosmos has its problems but anyone paying attention would see that Cosmos openly talks about those problems every day.
Meanwhile this guy doubles down and lies in 4K when the RaaS he claims offers today decentralized sequencing replies saying it’s on testnet…
@chadb0t
I mean you can use Espresso right now, today, on your own L2 rollup via
@Calderaxyz
to have a decentralized sequencer network.
Cosmos sdk theoretically gets to a 1k tps limit, practically it gets no where close, especially when putting something as beefy as Ethermint or…
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Why MEV is getting so much mindshare:
Blockchains promise to change the world by serving as a credible third party when there is none (eg all of finance)
But this isn't the case in practice bc non-credible (incentive incompatible) middleman are at the center of it all
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What are the best resources to learn about IBC protocol and the Cosmos ecosystem?
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Major chains use leader-based consensus
This allows malicious leaders to extract value from their temporary monopoly on tx ordering and inclusion
Multiplicity changes that by decentralizing block production allowing for MEV recapture at the application level
Today we're excited to announce Multiplicity, a modification to the Tendermint consensus that enables full on-chain MEV capture and redistribution to Duality LPs, available open-source in Q2 of this year.
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Threshold decryption + ABCI++ are going to change the game for cosmos
It's two new tools in the app-specific arsenal that generalized chains are lagging behind on
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Nathaniel Rothschild is the goat MEV searcher
- Geo-distributed nodes (i.e., brothers in london, frankfurt, paris, amsterdam, perpetual travelling)
- Cross-domain arb (i.e., bros arbed local venues)
- Expert front-runner (i.e., used comms network to trade on war news first)
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The only thing I could think about while reading this post was excitement for
@CelestiaOrg
Some thoughts on threats of hard forks...
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A reminder that the friendly rivalry between
@osmosiszone
and
@Neutron_org
will push both communities to make Cosmos greater than it would be without each other.
So much pie left to grow.
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Old
@aeyakovenko
tweet on multiple concurrent block proposers as an MEV solution. Crypto is rampant w/ engineers who have deep intuition on difficult problems before there's much theory.
(screenshot from )
4. multiple leaders per slot - Multiply the block packing and production bandwidth, maximize MEV competition, reduce distance between client and leader. Multiple leaders propose PoH streams with their own ordered txs. The final order is all the streams zipped together.
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We should all be more like Jon :
- Open to learning from all ecosystems
- Thoughtfully questions blind maximalism
- Gives credit when where due
Argument against Lido growth is consistently it’s bad for Ethereum neutrality meme, not a real attack risk
Its literally only a meme that its so bad bc y’all keep yelling it all the time
How about u just stop yelling the meme & share accurate message
Sorry but this is insane
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The most important skill to build is a love of learning. Once you do there's no ceiling you can't breakthrough.
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The Cosmos SDK is the new Cosmos SDK
[OP Stack, ZK Stack, Orbit, Rollkit] is the new Cosmos SDK!
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Say what you want about ICS but it's bringing a tremendous amount momentum back to Cosmos.
Few Cosmos developers don't want a piece of the Cosmos Hub right now.
👏
@JTremback
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*taps the sign*
It's cool to see Uniswap and others experiment with intents, but it's concerning how the trust assumptions these systems make are left as an exercise to the user while all of the benefits and hype is made explicit.
(they rely on centralized auction operators)
One of the most thought provoking pieces in this space.
Expedient intent implementations are a continuation and magnification of existing centralization of MEV supply chain. And god I see so many bad intent implementations that just centralizes the market.
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Taking a break from twitter this week to accomplish what every junior idea guy (JIG) must accomplish before being promoted to senior idea guy (SIG) :
An Endgame post
🔜™️
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If anyone with funds on Ethereum wants to buy
@badkidsart
ill send you the OSMO for gas
1. Bridge ETH for axlETH to Osmosis using Satellite
2. Next dm me and I'll send you enough OSMO for gas to swap for STARS
3. Once you have the STARS bridge to Stargaze and buy the bad kid
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If I was any major funding body in Cosmos, I would be throwing ungodly money at Skip right now to keep the app-specific thesis alive
These peeps are the real deal 🫡
Now that the first few chains are deploying the "POB" MEV module on mainnets, we've expanded its scope to be something much bigger...
Introducing: ✨ The Block SDK ✨!
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I went to the Delphi Oracle and overheard their prophecy.
"An
@jon_charb
post on ABCI++ will bring Cosmos to the mainstream and usher in the next bull market"
Now we wait.
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@zmanian
@adamscochran
@EclipseFND
That’s impossible because he runs a node for every chain he talks about.
Don’t you know to trust and not verify Zaki
@mhluongo
Fair enough!
Fwiw, any chain I talk about, I’ve at the very least compiled from source and run a node or validator where possible, or played with a tech fork or built on top of.
I’m not just a talking head, I need to get my hands dirty in something before I use it or invest in…
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Two years ago
@NicholasEvans14
and I set out to solve some core problems plaguing DeFi. Unfortunately, the necessary tools for smart contract developers didn't exist yet.
Excited to be working with the contributors of
@Neutron_org
to change that.
It's time to get integrated 🕺
Introducing Neutron as the Integrated Application Network ✴️
By granting smart contracts the powers of an appchain, Neutron enables developers to build breakthrough applications and onboard users from anywhere.
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L2s scale Ethereum compute
Solana scales synchronous compute
Cosmos scales asynchronous compute
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Creating MEV solutions is necessary to fulfill blockchain's promise of being a credible coordination mechanism
Without them we're doing a whole lot of larping as an industry
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Friedrich Hayek : “The root and source of all monetary evil is the government’s monopoly on money”
Hayek if he was an MEV researcher : “The root and source of all MEV evil is the proposer’s monopoly on ordering and inclusion”
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1) Our model shows that when gas fees are higher DEXs prefer to allocate liquidity over more edges (due to cumulative costs of indirect exchanges). Another way to frame this is that liquidity fragmentation increases when gas fees do...
#DeFi
$ZAP $UNI
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Something not talked about enough in the oracle-free DeFi conversation is why protocols use them in the first place.
Relying on market forces for price discovery requires either
1) professional market makers (eg concentrated liq)
2) losses of efficiency (eg xy=k)
DeFi is broken.
Last year, we had $3.8b was stolen via exploits, a frequency and severity far too high for mainstream adoption.
We need to fundamentally rethink how DeFi protocols are designed and secured.
Here's one place to start:
🧵 (0/28)
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My favorite proof in crypto is the one that shows the Pareto optimal venture strategy is to pair a bunch of academics w/ some 17-2X yr old pseudo-anons to build their research.
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Despite alignment in values, the Cosmos and Ethereum theses are pretty distinct
Cosmos: (Sovereignty): eliminate platform risk, build alternative, sovereign trust and liquidity networks
Ethereum (Scaling): trust and liquidity is scarce, scale existing networks
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Kinda crazy that DeFi tried to build exotic derivatives before auctions
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A lot of people building appchains are doing so bc approllup + settlement SDKs are so nascent compared to the cosmos SDK + Tendermint
There’s a Cosmos+ sized opportunity open for the taking
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Getting a better idea of
@SushiSwap
liquidity allocation and DEX structure. The right pic shows all liquidity pools between the tokens with the 10 highest volumes, and the left pic is the same except color corresponds with the amount of liquidity. Let's explore some takeaways...
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Celestia's endgame is exciting because it is increasingly not modular :
Adding ZK Opcodes -> Settlement
Speeding up block times -> Sequencing
Censorship Res. Mechs -> Sequencing
You shouldn't have to trust and coordinate a different committee for every function.
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If I were a founder I’d be itching to work with these guys. It’s the newest addition to the S tier of crypto funds (w/
@robotventures
and
@paradigm
)
Welcome to Bain Capital Crypto – backing renegades and pioneers building the next generation of open internet infrastructure. We’re excited to share what we’ve been building.
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@PrimitiveFi
is underratedly one of the most well-rounded teams in crypto
Phenomenal researchers, DeFi native entrepreneurs, elite solidity engineers, front-end magicians
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What happens when miners on MEV chain (codename SUAVE) start extracting MEV?
Do we need a MEV chain for the MEV chain?
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If you got to the end thanks for reading.
Just my two cents on the topic. Maybe it's useful. Maybe not. But enjoyed getting it all on "paper".
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To illustrate how easy it is to censor transactions on
#Ethereum
, SMG engineers have halted all transactions for 12 seconds ⏱️, paying just 0.05 ETH.
Here's why we're worried 🧵 👇
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Cosmos : How do we get users ?
To people who don’t use Cosmos… how can we align with your interests more? How can we build better user experiences? What would it take for you to bridge liquidity over ?
The most interesting questions in the most interesting ecosystems
Ethereum: How do we scale?
Cosmos: How do we secure?
Solana: How do we decentralize?
h/t
@MikeIppolito_
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One of the biggest open questions to Cosmos’ success will be how to create a fair and competitive public goods funding process
It’s in everyone’s interest to keep
@SkipProtocol
and
@strangelovelabs
churning out innovative tech
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A flaw in the 'ZK will be everywhere' thesis, is that ZK gives no guarantees that what is being proved over was built honestly.
To get that you need consensus.
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Learned two major lessons
1) if you commute enough, anything is possible
2) just bc you listen to ppl talk about cryptography it doesn’t mean you’ll understand it
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Have now listened to every zk podcast episode ever made
What should I listen to next ?
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As long as there are multisig upgradeable bridges and/or no fraud proofs, L1s will have strictly superior security guarantees to L2s
As long as proving and/or sequencing is centralized, L1s will have strictly superior liveness guarantees to L2s
@nnnnicholas
Polygon POS is not a layer 2 (at least not today) but still has higher security guarantees than rollups without fraud proofs.
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I'll continue to root for Ethereum's success along with Cosmos' and Solana's and any other project building something new and exciting.
But maximalism is unproductive. It skews incentives from being about building better protocols and towards numba go up.
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One of DeFi's biggest problems is that its most impactful use cases are in countries without robust financial systems, BUT we're all building apps optimizing for the UX of the affluent.
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The right way to onboard users to Cosmos is to only accept payments in NEWT.
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Someone should build a cosmos lending app-chain with automatic end-block liquidations.
Lower risk + protocol-owned MEV is a strict improvement on what you can do w/o an app-chain
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Revealing a direction to the world was a big first step in bringing the ideas we feel are necessary for the wide scale adoption of DeFi to life.
Today, we unveil Duality, the DEX that gives Liquidity Providers superpowers. The next generation exchange is now coming to Cosmos.
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All of DeFi will suffer if we fail to bring liquidity on-chain.
When did DeFi stop becoming about trust minimized money legos composing and start becoming about giving up early ?
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The original paper proposes yield space as a better swap mechanism for fixed-rate products (). As time reaches maturity (t -> 0), the invariant becomes a constant sum (x + y = k). A quick 3d visual to help:
h/t
@niemerg
@danrobinson
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There's probably a really interesting paper to be written about the relationship between CFMM (/other MMs) fees, inventory risk, and block times...
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See also:
- App-specific sequencing
- Single-slot finality
- Censorship resistance
- Smaller validator sets with better distribution
- In-protocol delegation
- Shorter block times
you’re trying to fade an eco that was right about:
- proof of stake
- BFT
- app chains
- trustless interop
- liquid staking
- restaking
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SUAVE is going to be used as an L1 more than it will be as a block builder and it isn’t a bad thing
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In contrast when we looked at Cosmos :
- Tooling was solid
- Leaderless block production was in the works (vote extensions)
- All sequencers were decentralized
- Distributed consensus enforces validity
- IBC for bridging (best of all bridging evils)
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@AustinAdams10
Clever smart contract design but it doesn't push the bleeding edge of on-chain exchange
ABCI++ in Cosmos is a much more exciting, comprehensive version of v4's hooks
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*If* there's a renewed interest in enterprise blockchains returning, it'll be because of Sovereign Rollups
Control the full stack (flexible), without the costs of running the entire network (cheap), and with secure cross-domain communication (interoperable)
Great point by
@VelvetMilkman
Tldr- Sovereign rollups are better for enterprise applications (than smart contract rollups) bc the "fork choice rule" will be whichever instance the company is maintaining (via withdrawals, code updates...)
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In Cosmos' case it hasn't been gravity though, it's a combination of a failure to coordinate internally and Ethereum maximalism
If L2s are popular bc of security concerns about bridging, then for the forseeable future, IBC should be strictly preferred over multisigs.
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Even if Receive-Order-Fairness was possible FIFO tx ordering still doesn't seem ideal and would result in latency wars (value accruing to infra) instead of bidding wars (value accruing to apps + users)
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Hot take : the impact of ABCI++ like tools will vastly outweigh the impact of smart contract VMs
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Last night I told
@MaxResnick1
the truth.
The only way tried and true way to change Ethereum is to change Cosmos first and get them jealous.
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Ethereum is not the internet in the analogy.
It is an early, large server with a user base and a lot of resources.
If the story of AOL and closedness is used as a cautionary one, it should inform Ethereum to implement SSF and open itself up to other ecosystems.
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Intents : txs will be gasless and users will get the best price
Also intents : first lock up a user's collateral so they can't rug the solver, then have an auction for the right to solve so we don't waste resources in competition, then the auction winner coordinates...
The one line of hope I have for intents r&d being valuable is
@zmanian
s point about being able to prove properties about other chains
Solvers might have a unique ability to bypass limitations of cross-chain communication by generating and relaying proofs on their own
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I'd also pour a lot of resources into optimizing vote extension performance 🫢
If I was any major funding body in Cosmos, I would be throwing ungodly money at Skip right now to keep the app-specific thesis alive
These peeps are the real deal 🫡
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Cosmos’ modularity and decentralization maximizes innovation but minimizes coordination
people think the kimchi arb was the greatest arb in crypto but you can make a lot of money just taking ideas from cosmos and implementing them on ethereum a few months later
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