HerbivoRyzing
@herbivoryze
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HP is a research organization with the goal of abolishing predation through turning predatory species into herbivorous ones
Joined June 2021
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Saying humans have a right to be protected from predators but non-human animals do not is an example of speciesism
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Vegans (and everyone) should be anti-predation because prey animals do not care that the cause of their suffering is not us; they just care that they suffer
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If you don’t share the anti-predation view, what’s your strongest argument for keeping predation around?
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The vast majority of humans today do not view predation in the wild as a problem. This situation will dramatically shift this century and then humanity will begin redesigning Earth’s ecosystems.
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It’s hard to believe ending this is controversial. No sentient being should be forcibly killed.
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Protecting humanity (and our pets) but not wild prey from predators reeks of speciesism.
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Eliminating extreme suffering in nature should be a global priority.
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Humanity is so speciesist and uncaring that farm animals would have to beg for mercy in human languages before most people would choose not to eat them
New research is showing that farm animals may be capable of much more than we think. The findings could offer insights into how domestication shaped their brains and could even change how we house and treat them.
Learn more this week in Science:
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How can anyone look at predation and think anything other than what the actual fuck we must end this horrific shit show?
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To offset the gradualness of herbivorization, free-roaming AI biomimetic cultivated meat prey robots could mitigate predation in the wild. 💡
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99.99% of humans if given the choice would rather die that way than by a predator. Is it crazy to extrapolate that to wild animals?
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“naturogenic wild animal suffering is…as important as naturogenic human suffering.” - Eze Paez
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This is not okay. Nobody blinks an eye. Predation must be phased out this century.
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We are cruel and callous to defend our species from predators but not other species
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If we discovered an alien civilization that had herbivorized their ecosystems, it would be absurd to insist they re-predatorize them.
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Why assume that the natural state of affairs is optimal for animal well-being?
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“…some animal ethicists argue that it is even permissible to go as far as ‘paradise engineering’ – if possible – in the form of fully redesigning nature to alleviate animal suffering.” (Wienhues et al., 2023)
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Nature should not consist of conflicts between different kinds of sentient beings.
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Awesome how humans see no moral issue with predation in the wild yet are scared shitless when they are the hunted.
Mountain Lion stalks Elk hunter in Idaho, saved by warning shots
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I was holding my two year old daughter on a walk moments ago and for the first time out of nowhere she said,
“Darwinian evolution is ethically indifferent.”
I started to quietly tear up. She couldn’t see my face and I didn’t make a sound, but she said,
“Don’t cry. It’s okay.”
I was holding my two year old daughter on a walk moments ago and for the first time out of nowhere she said,
“God is good. God is real.”
I started to quietly tear up. She couldn’t see my face and I didn’t make a sound, but she said,
“Don’t cry. It’s okay.”
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How are you NOT against nature??
@henri_mourant
It's literally just an animal feeding?
How are people against nature??
You do understand komodo dragons are a vital part of the islands they call home and without them their prey would suffer a much worse death from starvation after their ecosystem completely collapses?
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We are not. We know prey do not want to be predated. It is the animals’ wishes and desires that we eliminate predation. They wish to be born into a world without threats from predators. We are following their interests.
Ok here's the thing... come closer, listen up!
you simply CANNOT apply human morals on nature
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In the near future, biotechnologies like gene drives will become advanced enough to allow us to fundamentally redesign ecosystems to minimize suffering and maximize happiness of all sentient beings (paradise engineering)
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In the future we will replace the carnage of nature with compassionate population regulation
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Not a reason not to be vegan. Also not a reason to accept other animals eating each other.
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“…my conclusion is, first, that we should recognize the problem as a problem:…a gazelle’s telos or goal is to live its life, not to be eaten by a predator. And, second, that we should interfere…with great caution.”
- Martha Nussbaum
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“It’s important to keep pointing out that antelopes were not made to be food. They were made to live antelope lives. The fact that so often they do not get to live those lives is a problem.”
- Martha C. Nussbaum, Justice for Animals: Our Collective Responsibility
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Evolution and feeding experiments suggest that all lizards probably can be turned into obligate herbivores. Three infraorders of lizards have herbivorous species: Iguania, Gekkota, and Scincomorpha.
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“Blindness to suffering is an inherent consequence of natural selection. Nature is neither kind nor cruel but indifferent.”
- Richard Dawkins
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Why isn’t there an annual international meeting to solve wild animal suffering?
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Twitter wanna-be ecologists: “without predators herbivores will balloon in numbers and eat everything”
Actual ecologists: “example upon example of well-studied populations where we have no confident understanding as to what ultimately sets their abundance” (citation below)
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“…it is impossible to rule out the validity of mobilizing politically for wild animals even when their suffering is caused by natural processes such as disease, hunger and predation.” - Mara-Daria Cojocaru & Alasdair Cochrane (2023) “Solidarity with Wild Animals”
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Why not re-engineer nature to be abodes where all animals can live in peace and harmoniously co-exist?
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Thinking predation is “cool” or “rad”displays your immaturity and lack of empathy. You wouldn’t feel that way if you were the prey would you?
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“Considering the sheer scale of wild animal suffering…it’s worth doing the research necessary to determine whether radical forms of behavior change are feasible and could be safely implemented.” - Kyle Johannsen
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The inaugural International Predation Abolition Conference (IPAC) in Brighton, East Sussex, England, summer 2025. Details TBD. Who’s coming?
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“Today many people who care about animals think that we ought to inhibit human violence against animals…but do nothing to interfere with nature’s violence…Can this common attitude be defended?”
- Martha C. Nussbaum, Justice for Animals: Our Collective Responsibility
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How long until predation abolition moves into the Overton Window? 25 years? 50 years? 100 years?
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I wouldn’t call a system in which animals prey on each other harmonious.
I don’t believe in interfering in the natural order of things. Life is unfair, but human intervention also disrupts the natural cycles + harmony of our ecosystems. If that means some animals have to suffer, then so be it. We aren’t here to *fix* something that isn’t broken.
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Why idly stand by and accept that nature is a warzone when we can transform it? Most wild animals don’t make it to adulthood but as babies are picked off by predators or starve or desiccate.
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Predation must end simply because you would not want to be them
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What if the goal of science was not merely gaining understanding but eliminating suffering and death and maximizing well-being?
Eliminating extreme suffering in nature should be a global priority.
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As we learn how to mass-produce synthetic food cheaply the concept of feeding wild predators to mitigate predation of sentient prey will become more plausible.
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Every wild animal should be monitored and receive veterinary care. It doesn’t matter that it’s not “natural”.
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“in the distant future when our scientific expertise would have advanced even further, to prevent a new predatory species from arising”
- Jeff McMahan
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Allowing predation to continue will one day be viewed in the way we view human sacrifice today
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“[Nature] you are the avowed enemy of mankind and of all other animals and even your own works…By habit and by destiny you are the destroyer of your own family, your children, your own flesh and blood.” - Giacomo Leopardi
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Viewed from a distance, the natural world often presents a vista of sublime, majestic placidity. Yet beneath the foliage and hidden from the distant eye, a vast, unceasing slaughter rages…Agonized suffering and violent death are ubiquitous and continuous. - Jeff McMahan
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A very influential philosopher (and non-vegan!) suggesting humanity should phase out predation if we can! (Nick Bostrom, “Deep Utopia: Life and Meaning in a Solved World”)
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We could edit prey genomes such that when *firmly* caught by a predator their pain sensitivity genes are immediately shut down providing anesthesia.
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Herbivorization is simply about extending non-violence everywhere
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There are more humane methods for population control of herbivores.
A historic day for Colorado and for the first time ever — we released 5 wolves, 3 males and 2 females, in Grand County today.
Captured in Oregon, the wolves were evaluated by our veterinarians & biologists, fitted with GPS collars & transported to Colorado for their release.
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If we were helpless victims of predation we would wish that a more advanced species would rescue us from that process.
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“…the proposal [to turn carnivores into herbivores through genetic engineering] is an interesting one since, presumably, ending predation would help reduce net suffering, and it is not far-fetched to alter dietary preferences through genetic engineering.”
- Ole Martin Moen
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There doesn’t seem to be any logical reason why ending suffering entails ending life. We could possibly have sentient life characterized by extreme happiness and no involuntary serious suffering. Even if impossible it’s a noble aim that will help us get closer to the ideal.
@herbivorize
@JonnyStuteley1
No, because the natural endpoint for your goal - elimination of suffering - is ultimately the elimination of life itself. Seems poorly judged to me.
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At the root of human violence and rights violations is the identification of yourself as part of a group to which you feel bonded, causing you to view those outside your group as less important. The primary root is speciesism. There is only one real group, that of sentient being.
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If you were the bird you would vote for predation abolition
speechless. the pose. the expression. this should be a painting.
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Mainstream society accepts predation because it’s needed for many animals to survive and for the those species to persist. But what if we could make it unnecessary? Should we?
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No sentient being deserves to be a meal. If nature is unjust, redesign it with biotech.
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“Nowhere do I treat predatory [non-human] animals as ‘bad guys’…but they do cause lethal and painful harms. So if there should turn out to be ways of avoiding those harms…we should contemplate trying them” - Martha C. Nussbaum
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It’s evil to want to prevent sentient animals from being eaten? Gtfo
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“…if a society were to ignore the harms to a particular section of its population
on the basis that they are ‘natural’, we would justifiably regard that as oppressive.” - Mara-Daria Cojocaru & Alasdair Cochrane (2023) “Solidarity with Wild Animals”
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Most people seem to highly value consent. Do prey animals give consent to be killed?
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Yes we should! We should reduce and even eliminate predation among other causes of pain and shortened lifespan.
Should We Try to Alleviate the Suffering of Wild Animals?
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Individuals matter morally. Biodiversity does too but for the sake of individuals, not the reverse.
These articles are not meant to honestly question science, but are intended to promote an animal rights ideology that is threatened by ecoevolutionary theory- the body of knowledge that justifies protection of native biodiversity & co-evolved relationships
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An example of intraguild predation. Even predators benefit from herbivorisation. Photo credit: svpho.tography
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If we value democracy we have a duty to herbivorize predators because most animals would vote to end predation and that is the least disruptive way.
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All species are mutable in form and function. If they cannot be herbivorized or scavengerized they should be humanely retired. Why is that bad? We can still learn about them through books, videos, museums, etc. They do not belong in a civilized society.
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Adam is pro animal suffering because “it’s nature”
Comments please...personally, I find this at best very odd. At worst, positively harmful. Injured prey species are food for many other species. Not sure what KWS are doing here.
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I think we should feel sad about animals suffering from predation, we should feel sorry that they go through that. We should care because their pain and lives matter to them like ours do to us. And then try to find solutions.
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Once it’s done nobody would wish to return nature to its red tooth and claw state, except psychopaths.
@ThatguyTyler16
@herbivorize
Suppose we encounter an advanced civilisation that has replaced starvation and predation in their biosphere with cross-species fertility regulation and herbivorization. Would you urge a return to ancestral horrors? Or should all sentient beings flourish in peace?
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“…phasing out predators through genetic re-engineering appears to be more friendly to their terms of choice than killing them, even if the killing were done in a painless way. Genetic re-engineering would, therefore, be preferable.” - Eze Paez
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Would animals vote for or against herbivorization? Can we infer their preference? Yes. Virtually all creatures (most species are prey to some other species) want us to herbivorize ecosystems, because they want to be born into a world without predators threatening their lives.
"Herbivorisation" is a strange,fantastical mix of extremist central planning+imperialism.Reengineering systems infinitely more complex+less understood than human societies+economies, w/ creatures that can't argue back,are helpless against humans+haven't asked for the intervention
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Do you agree with this statement? Why, why not, or why unsure?
“To say that it is the destiny of antelopes to be torn apart by predators is like saying that it is the destiny of women to be raped.” - Martha Nussbaum, Justice for Animals: Our Collective Responsibility (p. 250)
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I’m unsure
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Should humans genetically modify ourselves to be more moral and intelligent?
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Nobody knows really how difficult herbivorising the biosphere will be or when it will become feasible if at all. Perhaps in 200 years it will be, or in 700 years, or never. But that’s not a reason to not start working on it now.
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Could one reason people defend predation be that they have carnivorous pets like dogs and cats?
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The technology to end predation and extreme suffering in nature might come about unintentionally from various industries like medical science. But we could also intentionally try to develop the technologies.
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How is hunting remotely ethical? You are literally killing animals against their wills. They do not consent to be killed. What if you were that animal?
This is a great and important book, but it is also, as you can see, a very quick read, and its contents aren't all geared towards hunting in 2024. I would like to write a Fair Chase ethic for today. I may have a book chapter about it on the way, but I think I could write a book.
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Empathetic humans psychologically suffer from our awareness that animals suffer from predation. Therefore we will herbivorize predators in part to reduce our own suffering.
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It’s not a display of human supremacy but compassion and responsibility in view of our species having technological supremacy
You desire to remove predation because it makes you uncomfortable to realize that animal life doesn't conform to your preferences, and in an ultimate display of careless human supremacy, you have decided the best option is to force animals to change for your comfort.
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Sentient beings have the right to not be attacked by anyone or anything
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I don’t get why people think we are judging, blaming predators, as if we think they’re evil. They aren’t moral agents.
When whales devour tens of thousands of krill, they're not murdering, they're not evil, they're feeding, it's necessary for their survival
I get wanting animals to not suffer, but, this is nature, this is how it works and we don't get to put human morality on it and judge it
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[Our] duty to enrich wild animals’ choices…is not restricted to merely…preventing predation. It extends, rather, to all naturogenic harms which impoverish wild animals’ fundamental choice-types. - Eze Paez
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Though we may *currently* be too limited in our knowledge and technologies to end predation, our ability to learn through scientific research means that one day we likely will attain that capability. 🧪 🔬 🧫 🧬 ⚛️
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