discourse catharsis | trying to self-care💜
@lizcourserants
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discoursecatharsis from tumblr | fandom/fiction discourse | believer in "don't harass people over cartoons and learn to block" | she/her | Read pinned in full!
*Pls read my pinned fully*
Joined April 2018
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About + info. *PLEASE READ* my carrd and look at this thread before you follow or send me messages.
This thread includes a post about my general thoughts on fandom discourse, plus links to some of my previous tweets and threads.
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An artist being dogpiled for smth ignorant that they said 9 years ago as a teen and apologized for is proof that people on Twitter don't want others to learn or improve after making genuine mistakes. They just want to bully people because it's become a bonding activity for them.
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Trans people have to jump through hoops to get surgery approved by their insurance, but thousands of people on twitter somehow believe that a doctor will just amputate some guy's limb because he's got a fetish.
Like why are 20k people taking the word of a clueless 15 year old?
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This cycle keeps happening.
Op of a callout: Ew, this artist (drew thing I don't like or literal slander), jsyk.
(Call out blows up.)
Op: BRO DEACTIVATED💀
(Op experiences backlash for running off the artist.)
Op: I did nothing wrong, I'm a minor :(
And y'all never learn.
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"It's fiction" but it's... not. She's a real person putting on real blackface and mimicking real Black people. That's not "fiction." Wtf even??😭
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You do not "own" trauma. Some random stranger is NOT "romanticizing (your) trauma" when they write about or draw fictional characters in a traumatic situation. In many cases, the person is writing about THEIR OWN trauma using fictional characters. It has nothing to do with you.
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Asian creators continue to distance themselves from their overseas fans because so many ppl in Eng-speaking fandoms have become totally insufferable and keep harassing artists for creating dark content. And I don't blame them for not wanting to share their works with us anymore.
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Reminder that "proship" simply means "I don't care what ships you like, fics you read, or fanart you draw, because it's all fictional and it's not indicative of your real life morals or behaviors, so I won't harass you over it."
That's it. That's all it means.
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Western creators need to learn how to promote their mlm stories without bashing BL. You can push up your works without pushing down the BL genre.
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My favorite ship dynamic 2022
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In 2020, let's emphasize how someone's interests in fictional ships, characters, and tropes do NOT say anything about their real life morals. Let's start judging others for their actions and how they treat other real life people, and not for their fandom interests.
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Nothing screams Twitter more than Hatsune Miku being sandwiched in between "World War 3" in the trending column
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"I'm sorry everyone, I will cut down on reading BL."
This makes me so angry. We should be encouraging more people to read lgbtq+ media. We should be promoting lgbtq+ media more, regardless of how you personally enjoy it. This is so backwards.
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Us: A disabled amputee was slandered about their disability and bullied off twitter and doxxed.
Twitter users: Okay but I looked at his account and he had some art that I thought was icky?? So maybe it was warranted actually?
Literally, wtf is wrong with y'all?
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"AO3 has long has gross problematic fics, why do y'all proshitters care now?!"
Idk how to explain to you that fics are fictional and what's happening now is affecting irl people (the volunteer) & real world issues, and how irl people are more important than fictional characters.
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You don't have to forgive people for anything. If you don't forgive and therefore dislike an artist because of what they said as a teen, that is your right.
But the huge amount of dogpiling and holding this over their head is just absolutely ridiculous and excessive.
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Some of the nicest people in fandom ship the most "problematic" of ships. Likewise, there are shitty people who only have the most Pure Fluffy ships out there. What someone ships, someone's taste in fiction, does not determine their morals or how good/bad of a person they are.
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All the qrts saying "oh I feel bad now, I take back what I said" as if that un-does the harm their words caused.
When will people learn to stop mocking artists and comics and art styles? There is a human being behind that comic that you're making jokes about. It's not funny.
맨날 나 모르는 사이에 내 웹툰 이상한 말들 돌아다니고 조림 돌림 당하고 비웃음 당��고.. 일부러 보라고 하는 짓인 건 알겠다만... 다들 엄청 한가한 가 봄 남 욕할 시간도 있고
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Do the people who complain about "BL is fetishizing, fujoshi are fetishizers" ever give a clear definition of what the hell fetishizing even means? They're always so vague about it and seems like to them the word mean "writes stories and tropes that I personally dislike."
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The normal thing to do if you find out an artist you liked/rted enjoys something that squicks you out: Unfollow and block them.
The abnormal thing do to: Make a call out post, because all it results in is people being overly-dramatic about it and leaving hate for the artist.
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"I just wanted to warn my friends about the icky artist." DM YOUR FRIENDS! Post it to your little friend discord server. You know damn well that by posting it publicly on twitter, you were hoping to look morally superior by condemning someone you think deserved to be condemned.
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A couple things about this:
1) The implications of this tweet ("you must make rapist characters have an unlikable personality and ugly design") are incredibly harmful and dangerous. Real life rapists, predators, abusers, etc. aren't always cartoonishly ugly or weird.
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Genuinely what the fuck? Why did so many people believe this?
This is going to be one of many threads about this situation because there are a lot of topics I want to talk about regarding this but holy shit y'all
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This is actually kinda disturbing that people are like "lol same!" to this. Do y'all realized how messed up it is that you've normalized telling people to off themselves online so much that it just slips out in real life now like a swear word after you stubbed your toe?
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It's concerning to see people straight-up DENY sexual undertones that are very obviously there.
To deny or downplay taboo stuff in fictional media when it's right there in your face is wild and I've seen it more and more in fandom lately with the rise of fantis.
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Millennials came across rampant porn on the internet as kids/teenagers too. I remember it was a "trend" for teenagers to react to 2 girls 1 cup. There was so much content that was at minimum sexually suggestive.
Gen Z's "prudeness" is due to the rise in conservatism
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This is why I say these call outs are unnecessary. All they do is lead to harassment of the artist. Which in turn leads to the call out op getting (rightful!) backlash, and in many cases, THEM feeling stressed and anxious about said backlash.
These posts aren't good for anyone.
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Y'all love to use that big "normalization" word so let's talk about how social media has normalized y'all to make death threats and say other awful things towards other people and not see why that behavior is disgusting and wrong.
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Reminder that creators in fandom are drawing/writing about FICTIONAL CHARACTERS. They are *NOT WRITING ABOUT YOU.* You are not that fictional character. That creator does not know who tf you even are. Their creations of a fictional character/ship have nothing to do with you.
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It's really not that hard to do.
So it's very clear that so many ppl on Twitter are just living this mean girl fantasy online. On social media, they get to be the school bullies they wish they were. They get to have fun with their friends as they clown on someone else-
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There have been artists who, as adults, have said some reprehensible crap that I'm still upset over and will probably never forgive. You know what I did? I blocked them. I don't look at their account. If they end up on my tl some other way via a qrt or whatever, I keep scrolling.
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Woman: *loves pink things*
Ppl on twitter & tiktok: She's pedo-baiting.
Woman: *is flat-chested*
Ppl: She's catering to pedos.
Woman: *has a high-pitched voice*
Ppl: She's contributing to pedophilic desires.
Y'all hate women AND y'all are obsessed with pedos, pick a struggle.
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Ppl online really be like, "I'M allowed react with angry death threats whenever you tweet something about fictional characters that I personally dislike, but YOU'RE not allowed react with sadness whenever you receive death threats because it's not that deep."
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Proshipping just means that you believe people shouldn't be harassed over fanart/fic because it's fictional. That's it. Some propshippers enjoy "problematic" content and some don't.
It's not that complicated y'all. When did y'all make it all so completed and why??
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Something I noticed some people in the replies brought up (and that I rted) that I have time to talk about now.
The person in the screenshots also made this video, a video with nearly 600k views, trashing on Boyfriends, an lgbt+ webtoon by an Asian creator.
This is a pattern-
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Minors and puritans in fandom: Adults, you need to stop sexualizing these characters! They are minors! Sexualize the adult characters instead!
Adults in fandom: Okay. (sexualizes an adult character in Spiderman)
Puritans: No you can't sexualize HIM, that's fetishizing!
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For people genuinely curious about this Twitter etiquette, I remember first hearing about it on tumblr. I found the post if you would like to read more of an explanation as to why some Asian artists find quote-retweeting to be rude.
(Link below in another tweet.)
Anyways all this to say: some Asian artists find it rude to quote-retweet their art. To them, it's the same as stealing/re-posting. You may not mean any harm but please don't do it! Just retweet it like normal. If you want to make a (nice) comment, do it in their replies.
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We need to have a serious discussion about this weird trend of people feeling "betrayed" by artists in fandom and how that's some unholy mix of entitlement and parasocial relationships and it's not normal, but I have a migraine atm so that's a topic for later.
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Logged onto twitter to find out that people harassed a disabled artist off this site for "fetishizing their own disability"?
Bravo. Y'all outdid yourselves this time.
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I genuinely hope that someday people can be sued for defamation for doing this crap.
The news article is about real children and they post a photo of a man who talks about anime and 58k people liked it. Y'all can't keep making these awful false implications about people.
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When we talk about how "fiction =/= reality," you know DAMN WELL that we're talking about fandom, abt anime fanart/fic that regular ppl like you and I create as a fun hobby. We are NOT talking about government-issued propaganda created to push harmful narratives. You know that.
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Also just the absolute irony of retweeting this the day before making this call out.
Y'all also downplay tf out of your harassing behavior, that's another related issue here.
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I wanna address a little side note about this comic that went unnoticed.
A popular tweet recently claimed that this comic was made for the Sofia The First fandom.
It was not. And I can prove that the screenshot was cropped to make it seem that way.
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Making a callout post JUST to "alert" people that someone draws/writes certain fictional content (content that the creator makes clear in their bio, ao3, carrd, etc) is harassment.
I am NOT budging on this. These "call out" posts are unnecessary. If the content creator-
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and they get clout and likes and rts for doing so. And that behavior is very weird and frankly disturbing and unhealthy too. And they either don't see that or don't care. This whole mindset isn't okay.
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This site is a nightmare. People just lie, are corrected, and never delete their lie. People justify others lying and slandering. It's a mess.
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"Proshippers just need to keep their gross art PRIVATE!"
And then oh look, when someone IS quietly/privately a proshipper, their private account is exposed and they're subjected to a callout post and are shunned by their former followers & friends.
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I'm trying to be sympathetic here.
But op, you gotta realize that eventually once a story/creation reaches a certain point of popularity, you *cannot control* what characters your readers ship, what widely-liked headcanons your readers latch on to, etc.
In case people are still confused, I'm not quitting because people are shipping Adam and Rozy. It's because the shippers keep smudging their ship on my face.
They're everywhere on my comments, DMs, and even emails.
I have found some fanfiction of them while browsing-
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I hate that social media has normalized taking photos and videos of complete strangers in public without their knowledge, with the intent of posting it online to mock or gawk at the person for whatever reason.
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I really feel for 18+ artists these days. There are less and less sites for them to go. The internet is being scrubbed clean of anything sexual and ppl are just like "oh well, it's not that big a deal, it's just xyz and that's fine" and don't care that this is a slippery slope.
deviantart here heard someone said no one would ever be as stupid as tumblr was when they sanitized the platform 5 years ago and was like:
"hold my beer."
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Parents give their babies/toddlers too much screen time. I'm scared for iPad kids.
Once I saw a baby (not even 2 years old) in a stroller that had a screen built into the tray. The kid was watching Cocomelon instead of the zoo animals in front of them and it made me feel sad.
What is the most boomer complaint you have? Mine is I think people take their dogs too many places for my taste and also I think everyone should be more punctual.
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"Proship" is just the opposite of anti-ship. The "pro" does not mean "problematic." The "pro" means "for or in support of" and is used to indicate that someone supports others' right to consume whatever fictional content they want. That's it, that's all it means.
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But my point is: stop it with these stupid call outs. Stop writing them. Stop retweeting them. They are performative and always ALWAYS do more harm than good, to everyone. If you dislike an artist, block them. If you must "warn" your friends, tell them quietly in private.
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Let me use a tamer, fluffy trope as an example of "it's okay in fiction, but it's not necessarily okay in real life." Maybe that'll get the point across to some people.
Coffee shop AUs.
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cw / SA
As someone who's never seen a single episode of HH... this is a well-done scene. It really makes me feel for this character and what he's been through.
People who are saying that this is "disrespectful" or it shouldn't exist don't know what they're talking about tbh.
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"Fiction affects reality because THE SLENDERMAN STABBINGS! that's proof!"
Okay but y'all aren't calling for Slenderman to be banned from existence. Y'all aren't calling creepypasta fans "murder apologists" or accusing them of condoning homicide.
Your arguments are paper thin.
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And this isn't including the fact that oftentimes the "ignorant thing that was said years ago as a teen" is exaggerated or got misconstrued through the rumor mill and came out worse than what it actually was. Misinformation is rampant on this site and contributes to harassment.
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"THIS is fetishization! ACTUAL REAL SA survivors depict trauma and make cope art like THIS instead!"
I am begging y'all to realize that trauma affects everyone differently and there is no "right" or "correct" way to depict trauma in art. Get that through your thick skulls.
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People will be like "when those nasty proshitters say they're 'proship,' they really mean that they want to ship illegal things like pedophilia, incest, and abuse!"
And meanwhile I started my discourse accounts because anti-shippers were calling people pedophiles over this ship
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Fantis: If you're going to draw disgusting nsfw stuff, at least do it in PRIVATE! Put it behind a LOCKED ACCOUNT so people don't see it.
Also fantis: So this artist is hiding their shitty freak art behind their locked account! I made a mole account to follow and expose them!
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What establishing boundaries is: "I don't like these ships/tropes and I don't want to see them."
What establishing boundaries isn't: "If you like these ships/tropes, that's sick, you're disgusting, your ships are wrong, and I'm going to judge you as a person for it."
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I'm.
I'm just very concerned that some people seemingly don't realize that fictional characters... don't exist?? That they aren't real people??? Wtf is going on?????
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I agree with this take wholeheartedly. Fiction is transformative and fanon should be whatever makes you happy.
I just caution people to be mindful of the fact that that *your personal characterization of a character is not canon.* Don't mix up the two.
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Ways fiction can affect reality:
-makes people feel sad, happy, and other emotions
-inspires people
-informs people
-misinforms people
Ways fiction DOESN'T affect reality:
-makes someone want to sleep with their sister after reading an incest fic on ao3
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I need y'all to see this comment I got on one of my Youtube videos, I'm just ????
Some people really don't know/see the difference between fiction and reality and it's getting extremely concerning. It's long been concerning tbh
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Anyways this is basically what ends up happening to people who make artists call outs:
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Personally interpreting characters as having a sibling-like relationship = 👍🏾✅
Acting as if your interpretation is law and accusing people who ship those characters romantically of "shipping incest" = 🙅🏾♀️❌
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I just have to come to terms with the fact that every day I could say "hey yeah maybe you shouldn't harass people over fictional ships? it's okay to be uncomfy, but just block them", and I will still have petulant children replying "okay but what if they DESERVE death threats??"
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Newsflash to all the antis taking issue with this tweet: if you're a therapist, you can't tell your patients "well I think you're a disgusting freak actually who should kay why ess" like how you talk to people on social media
I admit, antis who are clinical psych majors genuinely have me extremely concerned for their future clients.
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It's almost 2024. If you're gonna be in fandom, especially into anime, you need to know that in Asian fandoms, "cp" stands for "character pairing." It's their word for "ships."
This artist is being harassed and slandered because English-speakers are xenophobic and ignorant af.
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All the people in the replies who are saying "I didn't know," I hope you'll do your due diligence next time you seem some outlandish, unfounded claim on social media. Especially when that claim is from a teenager and has no legitimate proof or evidence attached.
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For the record, obviously I don't condone people sending death threats to this 15 year old. They were wrong, but no one deserves death threats, suibaiting, etc. You can criticize without being nasty. I already blocked people for saying kys or using the r-slur.
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"There's nothing wrong with *creating* dark content tho, it's only an issue when artists romanticize and normalize it, that's the problem!"
With all due respect, kindly STFU.
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The four horsemen of the apocalypse.
Can people please stop implying that fictional characters have the same rights that humans do? Are y'all okay? You're really starting to worry me.
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"For my gen, content we consume is an extension of our values" says it all.
That's why they think poorly of ppl who consume fictional content that's "problematic," taboo, etc. That's why they think if you're okay with something in fiction, then you probably approve of it irl too
"it's on content creators to stand in their niche and not move" ??? i'm sorry but what the fuck did i just read
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One of my favorite fandom parody accounts has long since deactivated but I want people to always remember this gem of theirs
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When I was a kid, going "on the internet" for me was playing Flash games on Disney and Nickelodeon dot com. Kids today don't have that, they don't have Club Penguin or similar sites. They're sharing social media with adults, and that (the shared spaces) is what's causing issues.
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Stop blaming fiction and fanfic and fanart and fandom writers & artists for abuse. These things don't cause abuse.
The only people at fault for abuse are abusers.
Not even the most fucked up dead dove fanfic you've seen creates abuse.
Only abusers create abuse, full stop.
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Also remember that people are not obligated to disclose their disability, health history, trauma, etc. You may not understand why someone with a disability or trauma will draw the things that they draw, but it's also none of your name business.
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Loving this community note 😌 Cause I was tired of repeating myself lol
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"Fujoshi are fetishizing mlm and I hate this & that kind of BL."
I promise you, the homophobic right-wingers currently trying to ban any & all mention of lgbt+ stories from libraries because it's "grooming" to them? They def want to remove your acceptable "soft" BL manga too.
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There's just so many layers to this pile of BS, it's very exhausting.
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You're gonna see triggering things online. That's how the internet works. It's like Russian Roulette. Even if you utilize mute and block features, sometimes things still slip through the cracks and you see triggering stuff anyway. It's a risk that comes with using the internet.
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Separating fiction and reality is normal. Creators do it all the time. So stop condemning people who enjoy fictional content that you find icky because they're doing nothing wrong. You are ridiculous if you continue to harass artists over fictional things.
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@Kaiser_MHA
Okay?? And guess what? Someone like that is probably very mentally ill and needs to be left tf alone, not made the subject of a call out post and harassed by thousands for it, which is what occurred here
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It boggles my mind that 10k+ people cannot comprehend the simple fact that "fictional story about fictional characters" is very different from "rude comments directed towards real life people." This seems like very basic common sense but these ppl don't get it. It's worrying.
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I don't care how much you despise loli, do NOT use this report feature to clog it up with tweets of bug-eyed anime characters when there are self-proclaimed pedos on this site sharing images of real life living breathing children being abused, you absolutely clowns.
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A plea to English voice actors: please make the distinction between YOUR own personal headcanons/theories and official sources clear. You are not an official source. You're allowed to speculate with theories and have fun with your characters as far as headcanons go ofc, but-
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The issue isn't the porn itself. The issue is the lack of sex education. The issue is the failure of parents to have conversations with their children about pornography and consent and sex and relationships.
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The poly girlfriend characters in this comic are LITERALLY THE SAME AS THE BOYFRIENDS. They're the same 4 character archetypes. Why are y'all "I'll get you out of there" to the gf characters, but posting ways in which you the bf characters would die? Y'all hate mlm, it's weird.
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I cannot take a single pearl-clutching claim of "this Twitter artist is drawing INCEST of fictional characters, it's so sad and disgusting and I'm so disappointed, unfollow them rn" seriously when everyone and their grandma is watching GOT these days, y'all need to get real
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I'm begging people in fandom to stop making and *stop supporting* call out posts on artists when the artist's only "crime" is drawing art that you find to be icky.
Please. It's causing so many issues and so much unnecessary hurt. It's making fandom toxic.
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My favorite fandom police are the ones who are like "I used to ship nasty shit but now I've seen the light😌✊" sounding like a born-again Christian or someone introducing themself at an AA meeting. Do they realize they're talking about shipping fictional characters?
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If you see a pair of basic floral-print underwear and immediately think they're problematic because they give you "minor girl vibes" so you run to tell tiktok about it... you might have a problem
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What amuses me about these dramatic "proshipping is HARMFUL and here's why" threads is that they talk about "proshipping" as if it's akin to drug abuse or self-harm when it's literally just the belief that you shouldn't tell ppl to off themselves over fictional ships and fanfic.
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Last night I saw ship fanart of Pacha and Kuzco from Emperor's New Groove and thought "aww cute!" and rted it and went to bed.
Now people are calling that ship "pedophilia" because of the age gap between the two characters🙃
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I wish they'd just flat out explicitly say "yeah Ice Ado isn't happening, sorry" or sell the rights to another anime studio who can animate it. I feel so bad for Kubo and Sayo and the whole team having their movie in limbo like this.
Mappa's CEO, Manabu Otsuka, mentioned Yuri on ice in a recent interview with Kompass.
" 'Yuri!!! on ICE' produced by our company turned out to be a big hit, but compared to the results, the amount of money coming into the studio was insignificant." 1/2
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Man it's embarrassing af that antis are harassing Japanese artists to the point where someone had to write this article to explain things to others (they do a good job with their explanation also). I feel bad that op had to deal with harassment.
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"as a zoomer, anti-bullying campaigns were incredibly successful" is RICH to see on a site where gen z users regularly tweet "some people deserve to be bullied" over someone doing something "cringe" like cosplaying. Y'all are bullies too, y'all just bully virtually now too.
as someone who grew up very much bullied this is still insane to me
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Fandom police who are under 18 really need to stop using the minor card, and so do all their friends coddling them. "Oh they're just a minor uwu, they made a mistake" after they make a call out post that results in an artist harming themselves.
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