Joy
@joyklaprade
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Reader, writer, trying to find my voice. I'm here as a woman who loves Jesus and his word, and wants better for his church.
Joined January 2012
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@jovial_cynic
So sorry for your loss… he sounds like a special dog. And your daughter is an incredible artist — that painting!
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I wonder how much outreach we’d need to do if, instead of using people to build programs, we simply lived as brothers & sisters who took time to know one another, who sincerely enjoyed each other — the way Jesus loves us.
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Last week, a woman at our church asked me to meet for lunch. She runs the women’s ministry, which I’ve been volunteering with. As we got together today, she mentioned she wanted to get to know me better.
All through lunch, I was waiting for the agenda to begin.
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There are strict rules for when a woman is harmed by a man in power.
He will be “a good man who made mistakes;” she will be “his accuser.”
He will always receive the benefit of the doubt, while her credibility, motives, & even sanity will be called into question.
(1/6)
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How many pastors are like him today – men who fall into sin because, after all their efforts to avoid the company of women…
they just ended up alone in a room with power.
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But there was no other reason.
She just wanted to have lunch with me. She just wanted to get to know me.
I know some of my worry was the result of my past church abuse. I also believe it reflects a problem in many white evangelical churches —
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too many relationships revolve around “what can you do for me?”
We have a great vision for spreading the kingdom; we are “on mission.” This means we have an agenda for everyone. We use & are used by one another.
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My former pastor and I once had a conversation about the merits of the Billy Graham rule.
Over email I described how, when men choose to avoid me, it makes me feel like a dangerous object.
He pushed back, explaining it was important for pastors to draw lines, because
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we got up from the table and walked out the door. And she gave me a hug and said she enjoyed the time.
And that was it.
As I walked to the car I noticed myself relax. I realized I’d been slightly tense the entire time, waiting to hear why we were really there.
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How many men would be pastors if they did mostly the same work, but:
without pay, and
without ever being allowed to teach from the pulpit on Sunday?
Because this is what many women’s ministry leaders do.
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Every time I criticize complementarianism, men accuse me of pride & a desire for power.
Which is exactly the problem with that system: it’s men trying to turn the family of God into a hierarchy they can rule.
I don’t want “power.” I want men to stop making church about power.
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Was there a job she wanted me to do? A concern to discuss?
I was a little worried it was one of *those* meetings — the “let’s get coffee” invitation where you’re going to be ambushed about something you’ve done wrong.
But then the check came,
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Dear pastors:
We don’t need “leadership.” We need someone to be WITH us when we’re hurting.
We don’t need a leader to tell us what to do. We need someone willing to listen.
Jesus did not come to us as a “leader” — he came as Immanuel, God With Us.
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PS - if you’re showing up to defend the Billy Graham rule, you’ve missed the entire point of this thread.
Please read all the posts and think through the last one, in particular.
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He is allowed to be angry. She cannot be anything but submissive and deferential.
He is not obligated to apologize, but she is expected to “forgive.”
What he did to her will never be judged as harshly as how she reacts to it.
(2/6)
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because he became a domineering and abusive leader.
He “ran me out of town,” to quote his own words, and has driven others away from church.
And so I have to wonder:
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I got this text Sunday afternoon. After spending the morning feeling anxious & unsafe at my new church, this felt like a moment of very specific grace.
This is the kind of apology many survivors of church abuse would like to hear.
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We need our churches to recognize that while they claim men & women are created equal, our leadership and power structures communicate something else.
When one gender is treated as more valuable, it creates an environment where abuse will flourish and always be covered up.
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“As a man, I humbly accept the burden of always getting what I want”
John Piper, 1991:
"mature masculinity accepts the burden of the final say in disagreements"
Comp Man's Burden™️
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A woman in our church invited me to meet for coffee yesterday.
She knows my story.
A few minutes after we sat down, she told me, “this is just coffee as friends. No agenda.”
It relieved the question lurking in the back of my mind.
I felt seen and cared for… and grateful.
+
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These rules exist because it’s costly to question a man with power.
Everyone who hears a claim of abuse is confronted with a choice: do I believe the man in authority, or the woman?
Most people instinctively take the safe route.
(3/6)
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Believing the man aligns you with power. Believing the woman puts you at risk.
Because of this, the decision is usually made without conscious thought. It happens reflexively, and will be justified after the fact with whatever evidence can fit the narrative.
(4/6)
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a pastor in their life having an inappropriate relationship and it has highjacked their faith.”
Today, I know around a dozen people who are now struggling with faith or not attending church because of that pastor’s behavior.
And not because he had an affair, but
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It was the way men treated me in the name of “complementarianism” that made me start doubting it.
I truly believed all the books & sermons that told me how men who follow this doctrine will lovingly lead women, but what I experienced was the opposite. +
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#metoo
and
#churchtoo
helped expose some of these dynamics. But in conservative evangelical churches — where men have power & women are seen as weak & easily deceived — shame is still getting shoveled onto female survivors.
It can’t be this way.
(5/6)
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My pastor confronted me one Sunday to tell me I shouldn’t be posting about The Great Sex Rescue.
I was shocked, tried to talk to him about it, & asked him to consider reading the book. (He refused)
After this I was removed from my role as women’s ministry leader,
+
There are many jarring details in her story but a particularly rough encounter includes Joy being berated for reading and posting about “The Great Sex Rescue” by
@sheilagregoire
on her instagram
Spoiler alert: her pastor is not a fan of egalitarian women
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my morning psalm provided the most appropriate words:
“the Lord is righteous; he has cut me free from the cords of the wicked.”
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What’s it like to be a woman in the church?
Men talk at me
Men talk about me
Men vote on what I can do
Men decide whether my perspective is valid (especially when I’ve been abused)
Do I sound angry? I’m not. I’m hopeless. I’m waiting for men who actually want to listen to me. +
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if they sinned, it could lead other people away from God. He said:
“No one would stop going to school or drop education if you and one of your school coworkers had an inappropriate relationship. But, I have lists of people who endured who endured
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Many men become pastors because they want to serve.
But far too many become pastors because they want to “lead.”
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The way to know a pastor’s actual theology is not to read his books, but to watch how he treats other people.
It’s so easy to write “Gentle and Lowly,” so very hard to live it. +
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Yesterday was the two-year anniversary of the day my pastor said I should be “run out of town.”
A 5-hour meeting with elders & church leadership. Realizing that the people we dearly loved had already discarded us.
I thought about writing something to remember the day, but
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I used to look for a church that “preaches the gospel.”
Now,
I just want a church that actually practices it.
thread:
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… and then “run out of town,” as that pastor said later.
@sheilagregoire
‘s work shouldn’t be threatening. But if it’s dangerous to say women’s needs matter, we have to question whether our churches truly value women in the ways they claim to do.
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In general, a “stronger men’s conference” does not attract men who are actually *strong* or secure in their masculinity.
All the critique of the event is important, but I have compassion for the men whose insecurities drive them to events where, rather than meeting Christ,
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By bringing up false accusations and their supposed danger to men, you are doing just what I wrote about: automatically discrediting women and aligning yourself with power (because it benefits you).
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Complementarianism is just another version of “separate but equal.”
I will keep saying this until it doesn’t need to be said anymore.
Letha Scanzoni & Nancy Hardesty, 1974:
“To argue that women are equal in creation but subordinate in function is no more defensible than "separate but equal" schools for the races.”
🔥
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There are a lot of evangelical women in MLMs, but…
“church planting” is the ultimate MLM for evangelical men.
➡️ convince your friends and neighbors to join you in a life-changing opportunity
➡️ church planting network gives you a starter package of support and training
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P.S. — if you’re here to talk about women making false accusations, thank you for proving my point.
This thread has nothing to do with the potential of false claims, but how often men who actually HAVE abused a woman are protected from consequences due to gendered power…
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What I loved & hated about Ted Lasso was how it portrayed the kind of community I was always told the church would be. People cared for each other, forgave one another, made efforts to change & repair relationships.
I spent nearly 10 years believing I was in such a community,
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@DancyChip
Thanks for proving my point so effectively. You’re portraying men as more vulnerable and valuable than women.
I’m still waiting for examples of men’s life being destroyed by a woman’s accusations.
Donald trump? Brett Kavanaugh?
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@laurchas22
“Why does my congregation seem to think church is a religious show?” … would’ve been a great place to start.
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Although this person was only a bystander in my story, it means a lot to have someone affirm the truth, 2 years later.
Don’t underestimate the impact your words can make. Maybe you witnessed something in your church & didn’t speak up at the time.
It’s never too late.
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@Cornelius898281
There are a lot of guys here saying that, without any evidence or real-life examples.
Unfortunately, you’re proving my point: you’re saying the greater danger is to men and their reputations. And that men are somehow both more vulnerable and worthy of protection than women.
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When Christian men use “feminine” as a negative adjective, it reveals something about how they view women.
The problem is how these men have blinded themselves to their own misogyny.
Misogyny in the church looks like saying the church needs to be a masculine space by default.
It looks like saying “the church is becoming effeminate” whenever something isn’t going well.
Misogynists often mask themselves as traditional, but they don’t actually want women to…
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I’m sharing the story to say — if you know someone with church trauma trying to get back into community, please know how hard it is to feel safe or trust anyone in this space.
And, if you’re the person trying to recover, I pray you find someone who meets you with gentleness.
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@jmurrey68
I agree with you that some men probably use it in unhealthy ways.
But also … if you read the history of how the rule came about, it was not to protect women, but to protect BG’s reputation and ministry. Women were seen as the danger to him, not the ones being cared for.
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“God wants you to have sex with me”
It’s the sort of statement a cult leader would make. Yet this is the essence of the obligation sex message. While never stated in such crass terms, this “Christian” teaching exploits a woman’s faith to coerce her into sex with her husband.
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We couldn’t have imagined choosing to miss the Easter service. But two years ago, that’s what we did.
We left town to visit friends in Florida. I remember walking the beach alone, crying and praying, asking God to change the hearts of our pastors and end the abuse.
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Once upon a time I was impressed by pastors who could preach well.
But then I learned how those pastors, all too often, only want to hear themselves talk.
Now, all that truly impresses me is a pastor who knows how to listen.
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One of the simplest ways to gauge the health of a church — does the weekly service revolve around one man’s performance?
If one guy does nearly all the preaching, it’s a bad sign.
Look for churches where two or more preachers take turns regularly.
If you can't trust someone else to preach so your solution is to ask several hundred people to come to a filing of your sermon, it might be time for a break and some reflection.
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Complementarian churches are set up so men don’t listen to women
and because of this, they tend to create
men who WON’T listen to women.
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➡️ promise of growth and personal development
➡️ if you’re good enough you can launch another business, er, church plant
➡️ bottom of the pyramid - church volunteers - does the most work (often for free) while profits flow to the upline
It’s not a healthy model.
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The “stronger men’s conference” preyed on men rather than serving them. It likely created weaker men, who idolize masculinity & power rather than worshiping Christ.
What men need is chances to know the suffering savior, & to learn how to say, “when I am weak, then I am strong.”
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I told them I forgave them, & thanked them for the risk they took listening to my story and reaching out.
I don’t know what caused them to listen to my
@bbtbpod
episode, but
thank you,
@johnnarae
, for creating a space for stories like mine.
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Mark Driscoll is such an easy target, I know, and truly awful… but can we please stop pointing fingers at him?
He is not the problem. He’s the symptom.
By making him the scapegoat, we can miss our chance to fight the issues he helped reveal in the American church.
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Men who need the security found in Christ alone are instead given worldly patterns of power and control, anger, & misogyny.
Men who desire the approval of a father follow guys acting out the same wounds, unable to be vulnerable & experience the Father’s delight in them.
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My former pastor said I should be “run out of town.”
When we left the church in despair after months of an abusive process, sold our house & moved, the pastor said he had no responsibility for our decision.
It was my fault, he wrote in an email, because I failed to trust him.
H/T
@matttebbe
Basically, to paraphrase, the exposure of sin like sexual abuse right now is a lie, and excuse because people are desperately wicked and want to leave their godly, safe, churches, for made-up reasons.
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I told them they were hurting me, but they wouldn’t stop.
I told them they were hurting my family, but they wouldn’t listen.
Of everything my pastors did, this was the most destructive. The way they ignored my voice.
(1/4)
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they’re presented with monster trucks and fireworks… plus Mark Driscoll.
I spent quite a few years in Acts 29, & was able to observe the patterns of men gravitating to “strong,” domineering leaders. For all that toxic Christian masculinity harms women, it hurts men too…
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The “biblical manhood” movement is primarily driven by emotions, not scripture or logic.
Piper & co. had strong feelings about what manhood *should* be, via their family & cultural background, so constructed a theological system to protect the familiar comforts of male privilege
John Piper, co-creator of Complementarianism:
Biblical Men must:
-pray
-drive
-make restaurant choices
-led family processions
-call for waitresses
-pay for meals
This is _Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood_ ⬇️
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The podcast host said “what happened” to his friend/author “shouldn’t have happened.”
What happened? A man experienced some consequences for perpetuating teaching that has been used to harm women, & was called out publicly for poor theology. (But his book is still selling)
Truth Over Tribe is a brand unless you will actually hear truth- even truth from women who use research & expertise to explain why your bro is out of line. This is a WILD amount of gaslighting.
Stuff like this pushes us further out of complementarianism way more than liberalism.
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What does ToT host think *should* have happened?
For men to promote harmful, self-serving views on sex & get famous for it?
For women to keep suffering the consequences of this teaching, including abuse?
That’s what has been happening, for years.
And it should not anymore.
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It’s worth noting that the guy saying “pastorate is a masculine office” is the pastor of an Acts 29 church.
It’s easy to hear echoes of Driscoll in that pastor’s tweets.
Male headship is one of A29’s 5 “distinctive” beliefs — the conviction that men are in charge of women. +
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In complementarian spaces, a woman’s desire to speak is seen as a sinful urge to usurp man’s power.
Churches like this silence women by training them to silence themselves.
(1/2)
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Women who speak more than men think they should will be perceived as out of line.
I wanted to pray because I loved the church. I wish the pastor had seen me this way, & that he’d seen who (which gender) was actually talking too much. Instead, he chose to put me back in my place.
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But I also know I’m free of a place and relationships that were deeply unhealthy, that were leading me and others away from Jesus even while claiming his name. And for that, I’m grateful.
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Now what I look for in a church is evidence of the gospel being practiced in relationships. Specifically, how does this church behave towards:
1. People who are not like them
2. People who have nothing to offer them
3. People who offend or sin against them +
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only to experience the exact opposite: shamed, shunned, & discarded by those I loved.
I think people watched Ted Lasso b/c we deeply desire that type of community, but my experience of spiritual abuse has made me a cynic. So I grieve & hope the body of Christ is real, somewhere.
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Women do the work of the church while men receive the privileges & paychecks.
I learned this as a volunteer women’s ministry director. Over time, I came to realize I was doing as much, if not more, than pastors with full-time salary — who also relied on female admin assistants.
In complementarian churches, women are often the ones truly bearing the brunt of the on the ground work of ministry & serving while getting no or little pay, title, or recognition. If all the women stopped, many of these churches would literally cease to function.
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Church abuse is the reverse experience of “It’s A Wonderful Life.”
Instead of learning how much you matter, you discover how quickly you can be forgotten. How the people you love can let you disappear from their lives and seemingly move on as if you’d never been there.
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When you care about the impact of what you said, you’ll find your own words to make it right.
When you care about image management, you’ll steal someone else’s words to avoid accountability.
Here's a clip of our side-by-side comparison of the apologies. To see full comparison, follow this link to our article: 2/2
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@Tin_Man1221
Jesus didn’t follow the Billy Graham rule. He was alone with women more than once. He wasn’t trying to protect his own reputation.
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Complementarianism allows men to get all the benefits of patriarchy without having to pay the price.
In other words, they get male power but can talk about female equality; they can profit from misogyny without having to defend it.
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Growing up in conservative evangelical spaces taught me to judge others, especially to assume motives and attribute intent.
We could almost always tell what sort of sinful tendencies motivated other people: +
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I don’t push it, b/c my policy was to focus on speaking up for other women rather than myself.
But the assumptions of complementarianism were the driving force under this story.
Beliefs like:
Men’s voices are valuable & should be heard. Women can speak when men give permission+
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If you cut off a friendship because a pastor says that person is a threat to the church, you are behaving like a cult member, not a Christian.
👆realizing this has helped me heal from betrayal after spiritual abuse. I can feel sorry for people who let themselves be controlled.
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Complementarian language would be rightfully rejected if used in discussions about race. How does this land?
“I’ve always felt there is a deep irony in (black pastors’) complaint that their calling to preach is only fulfilled if they are permitted to preach to (white people).”
I’ve always felt there is a deep irony in the egalitarian complaint that women who feel called to preach are only able to be fulfilled in that calling if they are permitted to preach to men.
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This came up in my memories today. Feels like a glimpse into another life. Two years ago today, while we were at Target (to get these boots, which she loved SO much!) I got a text from our pastor, asking for a phone call. I had no idea what was about to happen.
(1/5)
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Jesus warns against putting “hired hands” in charge of his flock.
Why then are so many pastors LITERALLY this?
— men whose relationship to Jesus’ sheep is based on the money they make from them?
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@Andy35o
I'm also a parent of 4. And I would like to hear from his wife about what he is doing to feed, clothe, bathe, and diaper, etc. on a daily basis.
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Where are the men willing to listen to women? Not to stand as judges over our words, but actually try to hear us?
Where are the pastors who want to listen to me?
Not as a preacher on a stage, but simply as a sister in Christ.
Where are the men who think I’m worth listening to?
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This was so encouraging to me…
My infamous post about The Great Sex Rescue that helped get me kicked out of my church specifically prompted someone to read the book.
I got this text after she listened to my
@bbtbpod
episode. Wanted you to know,
@sheilagregoire
! The people who
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….
I offer this for anyone else who knows the grief of ambiguous loss — especially the grief of being ghosted after abuse in the church.
May you know — when the ones you love let you disappear, the Lord still remembers you.
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These new friendships are a little over a year old… at what point, if ever, will I feel able to trust them?
I know many of you have similar experiences. I trust it'll get better (it has already, in some ways). But wow, the betrayal & abandonment of spiritual abuse just sucks.
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“Again, I know it’s easier to focus on my shortcomings than to contemplate the possibility that the pastor and elders abused, slandered, and lied about someone. You’re free to choose which is most important to you.”
(2/3)
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@DeeGoingsGirl
Also, there’s a world of difference between “I want to wear something I feel I look nice in,” and “I hope my outfit provokes strange men to have sexual fantasies about me.”
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Today is the anniversary of the meeting that broke my heart and shattered our family’s life. But this morning, I was able to pray. For the pastors who condemned me that day, & for church friends who betrayed us, I asked forgiveness & blessing with an open heart, free of anger. +
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I’ve been SBC, PCA, A29. I’ve watched these groups of men, over & over, talk about women. What we can or can’t do. Whether we deserve to be listened to, whether as victims of abuse or those who want to share the gospel. +
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@danae_hudlow
Same for me. Feminists were the bad guys … their claims of oppression were just propaganda. And then — I realized that the people teaching me to distrust feminists were practicing those *exact* types of oppressive behavior
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In the moment, I felt safe and hopeful, spending time with friends from our new church today. But as soon as it was over, grief and discouragement rushed in.
These are friends who know my story of church abuse, who have been kind and gentle. One of them
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All of the above are relationships that too frequently become places of control, oppression, or abuse. Places where harm is done in God’s name.
It shouldn’t be this way. Because Jesus has shown us we have a God who listens.
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One reason I was driven out of our old church was that I encouraged women to read The Great Sex Rescue.
At our new church, I’ve just invited a group of women to discuss She Deserves Better. I’m a bit nervous this will put a target on my back, but this thread is why I risk it👇
Is my critique of evangelical marriage & sex books merely outrage?
Or could it be better classified as a public health initiative?
Let me tell you about the drug Thalidomide.
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Abuse of all kinds involves destroying the agency and silencing the voice of another person.
But too often, our churches and faith systems are designed to do that very thing:
Unaccountable pastors who don’t need to listen to their people.
(2/4)
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I never questioned what I was told about women being “equal” to men, just with different roles in church & marriage.
But then I noticed this was only true in theory.
In practice, women must always listen to men, but men get to decide when they listen to women.
Not equal.
In evangelicalism, men get to pick and choose when they listen to women. Women have to listen to men always. This is what I’m talking about when I speak of subjugation. It IS sexist and they hide behind a couple verses that don’t even harmonize with the rest of Paul’s ministry.
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And that’s it. I will give everyone a chance at good faith engagement, but if you keep trying to offload your discomfort onto me, I will kindly refuse to play the game.
#spiritualabuse
#religioustrauma
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@MarlaAReid
Dependence on “rules” usually correlates with a lack of self-awareness and/or self-control.
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how would things in the U.S. church be different if being a pastor didn’t involve getting a stage and a microphone,
but instead required a lot of unseen and potentially dangerous work caring for others?
@joyklaprade
I was listening to an amazing episode of
@RoysReport
about
@NaghmehSPanahi
building the home church in Iran under religious oppression and persecution and it was startling how few men were called to lead in Iran compared to the west because it’s truly about service not ego.
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