... education, and find you each remain open to polite and healthy debate. Engaging with you helps me refine my own views and avoid entirely straw manning the trad side, which is a temptation at times... So thank you, and apologies if the engagement is ever excessive!

... would suggest it has perfected its approach. Finally, I want to address that I engage with you and Sam S (not tagged to save his notifications, but its complimentary addendum!) a lot! Its because I simultaneously disagree with you a lot, but admire your drive to improve...

It is important to note, though, that there is huge risk of having cake and eating it too: if P8 doesn't matter, no need to bother with results. Its really important for prog schools to use P8 as measure not target and strive to improve all the time. I am wary of any school that

... destination. The pursuit of P8 as a headline means that we are incentivised to take certain approaches that are antithetical to these (a key example being curriculum narrowing), and I would invoke Goodhart here.

Again, I stress grades are important, but also argue for: a broad curriculum so students can find things they want to pursue, maintain pupil roll 7 - 11 (some exclusions/ roll changes are unavoidable, but equally others ARE avoidable), ensure students get to desired onward...

... grades. I fear this is a red herring, not unlike uni being the ticket to higher earnings was in the 90s/00s. As university was pushed, we have seen a fall in graduate salaries in real terms. This suggests other factors beyond grades/ qualification level are at play too.

... difference vs eight grade 7s. Realistically, once you have finished a phase of education, your prior qualifications become largely insignificant as a general rule - English and Maths are the clear exception. A big argument for a P8 push is looking at earnings potential with..

... for any education system should be successfully supporting students onto their aspirational onward destination (college, university, work). Attainment (rather than progress, importantly) is definitely a core part of that, but very rarely would eight grade 8s mean the...

.. for longer, and yes, an approach that can eat more into academic instruction to manage behaviour. I think its a reality that RP/ progs can shy away from owning as P8 is such a headline figure. That said, I don't think P8 is a good proxy for a good education. I think the aim...

(QT to allow a thread, not for nefarious reasons!) I think it is a reality that a restorative school will not attain the same P8 as trad/ behaviourist schools. This is baked for a few reasons, including a general preference for broader curriculum, an attempt to keep more on roll

arguments is finding the right place for that line. I recognise this has been a bit of a word salad, and hope it makes sense, but would value your thoughts as I respect your views, even if ultimately where I would draw that line seems to differ!

... argument that any disruption is lost learning time, but that is academic learning - a strong teacher modelling de-escalation and refocus is also teaching soft skills to a class. There clearly needs to be a limit, I don't argue against that, but often lost in the trad/ prog

skills. It feels at times that the emphasis is on "students need to get it right", and not "teachers need to manage the room". I recognise that it is a balance, and that both are true, but a lot of what I hear is the former and not the latter. I recognise there is a strong...

... in terms of engagement and classroom management." (Possibly related to retention/ recruitment fears?) And some systems seem to be designed around an approach that pushes that onus onto the students (C1, C2, you're out). This lowers the explicit need for teachers to hone these

the role the teacher can play in exacerbating disruption. I fully agree there are times students need to be removed, but I think we often overlook the discussion on how this should be calibrated. There seems to be a fear of saying "yes, some teachers need to up their game...

... is the one "holding the line", without questioning if that teacher is adequately managing the dynamics of the 30 students in front of them. It sometimes feels to me that we can a) be sidetracked by the extreme cases in conversations e.g. the assault and abuse, and b) overlook

... said system. I think there is also the risk of placing all the onus on the student. I think we have all seen students who "get through" 80%+ of their lessons, but will always get unstuck with one specific teacher. Often the default I hear is that the teacher in question...

Once the student is out of the room, their learning has stopped - potentially for the rest of the day. I also fear that rigid/ prescriptive systems mean a professional who judges they can bring a student back around to learning can have their hand forced for fear of undermining..

As teachers, we need to recognise this and try to use tools to rein it in/ refocus a class. Leaving aside extreme cases, I fear that some of the conversations on here seem to advocate for whisking the child out rather than taking that bit of extra time to fix in the room.

As teachers, we believe in research. No. Not THAT research. That disagrees with my position. In seriousness, I hope all teachers spend the same effort attempting to dismantle research that confirms their own bias as opposes it. (I include myself in this! Can be guilty of it!)