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@q_squared_
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pan affectionate aroace, maverique, ith/iths
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Pinned Tweet
New pin since the last was controversial I guess.
I mute every convo as a guarantee I don't get notifs popping up while I'm doing other unrelated things online. Ppl have been weird about not getting immediate responses, so I'm pinning this. I do check replies when I have time.
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@FroggieAeon
yeah, couple that with looking at a few no-nip surgery pics that mention nonbinary folks and surgeon drew a very strict conclusion lol. I suppose an attempt was made *shrug*
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@ALMlGHTYSHOGUN
yeah, I think folks forget that it's about the choice and comfort of the nonbinary person. "included in all" is snappy and sounds good, but with no further explanation the burden of having their "not included" gender recognized falls entirely on the shoulders of those nbi ppl.
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@YAZZYTISM
ppl don't need to be men to be multi gender attracted and multi gender attraction doesn't require attraction to men
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@Star_Blossom08
Yeah, that's cause of this nonsense discourse. A couple of years ago instead of looking at what mspec actually meant ppl started assuming that "mspec lesbian" meant "man spectrum lesbian" & so someone added it to that wiki. It originally & for years was only about multisexual ppl
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@COBAIN_IRL
The "nonmen" definition is barely three years old. While the lesbian community has a long history of gender variety this includes ppl of all kinds of genders, not just those divided via binary lines.
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@Lucinellia_GW2
@DamianneTweets
yeah, ppl love to ignore how correct/recognized gender identification helps nbi ppl, esp when navigating medical/legal situations. apart from just, you know, not being misgendered I know a number of nbi ppl who couldn't get gender affirming care without state proof they were nbi.
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@Star_Blossom08
It never has.
Masculine spectrum is mingender (masculine in nature). Genders on the man/male side would be miaspec.
Those two spectrums overlap, but aren't the same thing because not all masculine genders are related to man and not all genders related to man are masculine.
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@Star_Blossom08
You said "mspec genders". Mspec means multi gender attracted spectrum or multisexual spectrum. It's about orientations that focus on attraction to multiple genders.
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@StephamieStar
Oh they totally do this too. And then usually they get confused and say stuff like "lesbians can't be attracted to nonwomen" with, like, zero understanding of how most "nonmen" are "nonwomen".
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@latelyaliens
@TurtRose
claiming bi erasure & palatability while forcing an exclusionary & binary prioritizing definition that's built on erasing bi's history of recognizing nonbinary genders as equal to binary genders wrt attraction & making multi gender attraction palatable to monosexuals is something
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the key part that folks forget about "nonbinary ppl are included everywhere" is that nonbinary ppl still have personal agency. the door is open, but we don't have to walk through. we don't have to take a seat or participate. maybe the most we want is to glance in the window.
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@h3llokittyboyy
True, but this generally isn't about assignment at birth, it's about nonbinary ppl who are also men, like multigender ppl and nonbinary ppl who are a man related gender. This tends to lead to policing masculinity and trying to firmly divide personal gender experiences & labeling.
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@LunianLesbo
@COBAIN_IRL
Or think that nonbinary ppl have ever been okay with being divided via the binary when it comes to what orientations we're "allowed" to use.
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@ShibaLee_
@killingwren
not all nonbinary ppl include themselves in all orientations.
not all nonbinary ppl are comfortable being included without discussion or compromises.
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@Shroeee
@rahrahh1186855
if you're attracted to one binary gender + one or more nonbinary genders and *denying* that you're mspec (not just personally choosing not to use the term, which is your right) then you're not treating nonbinary genders equally to binary genders.
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@jjonghrts
The mspec umbrella also includes orientations that specifically don't include liking men, coined before the push to redefine lesbian around "nonmen", and most of the main ones can also be defined without attraction to men. This has been going on for years.
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@uubuttercupp
Midbinary genders are a large part of the nonbinary umbrella. Being both man and woman is one of the oldest and common ways of being bigender.
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@maribugss
@insectomour
This doesn't say anything about "nonmen" or that all definitions exclude men. It points out that there are various definitions, some broader than others.
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@PinguFeminista
Mono attracted orientations (mlm gay/lesbian/straight) primarily focus on a single gender. Monosexual ppl are primarily attracted to one gender. Some nbi ppl include themselves in mono attracted orientations because they're primarily attracted to one gender or they feel their...
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@Shroeee
Yes, some lesbians are attracted to more than one gender and want to acknowledge that by using multiple applicable labels.
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@emmy_bunny14
@stop_gon
@FrenchDLuffy
@transbianestluf
absolutely wild to ban women and men from using lesbian and gay while including genders that have zero connection to woman or man
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it's wild to me that "people who aren't women aren't all comfortable being auto include in lesbian attraction" is like a confusing or controversial statement
personal inclusion is not a scaleable experience that must apply across all ppl of different genders
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@Asikaa604
@qweertygamers
correcting *is* joining the convo & taking action. aro awareness week is for arospec folk of any sexual orientation. it's not *also* for any sexual orientation. it's not aromantic & pansexuality awareness week, or aromantic & lesbian awareness week. ppl would question that too.
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@duckthatremains
the "nonmen" definition is barely three years old & based on separatist "no men" type definitions. Historically lesbian has focused on attraction to women, often regardless of any additional attractions. It's why it's primarily a mono attracted orientation, as opposed to mspec.
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@astrojjk_
And that's attraction to both more than one gender and same and different genders which are commonly accepted definition of bi. So, a "nonman" attracted to more than one "nonman" is both lesbian and bi.
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mono attracted ppl and communities have largely not done the work needed to explicitly and affirmingly adapt their spaces to being multi attracted. wholesale auto adding of other genders should not be the only or even primary solution for non-exorsexist recognition and inclusion.
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@VELVETCAKEMIX
Attraction to more than one "nonman" or "nonwoman" gender falls under various definitions of bi. If someone fits the definition of multiple labels they're free to use any/all applicable labels.
Lesbian and gay are not exclusively parioriented labels.
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@RadicalCandy
@theyasminbenoit
of course! excelling in pornography doesn't require experiencing sexual and/or romantic attraction 😁👍
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@StephamieStar
@Monkey2Bubble
Yeah, and then they say stuff like "lesbians can't be attracted to nonwomen" and have zero concept about how most "nonmen" are also "nonwomen". It's all so binary focused.
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@positivebis
@actuallyanopon
saying nonbinary is "nothing more than just a spectrum" erases and ignores the fact that it's a spectrum of multiple genders.
I am a maverique. attraction to me + women = multi gender attraction.
it's exorsexist to deny us our genders and treat them as unequal to man and woman.
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@mika_thena
@awesome_flags
There's nothing harmful with people who fit the definitions of multiple orientations using multiple lables. There's also nothing harmful about lesbians and gay ppl who are attracted to multiple genders explicitly acknowledging that attraction using established mspec terms.
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@Ace_mv17
Not all lesbians use "no men" type definitions. Many prefer non separatist based defs that focused on their love of/attraction to women.
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@Shroeee
@rahrahh1186855
no one is required to id as mspec * lesbian/gay, but it can be gender affirming to partners who aren't women/men & who don't feel comfy being included in the base orientations or as "nonmen/nonwomen" or without explicit acknowledgment that their partner likes multiple genders.
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@pigeontheherb
nonbinary is any gender that's not exclusively man or woman. being partially a binary gender (either all of the time or some of the time) is a common way of being multigender (examples... being both man & woman all the time or fluctuating between man and agender)
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@U_USER2000
when you step into mspec & nonbinary territories in disrespectful ways we certainly can speak up. denying lesbians who are attracted to multiple genders the choice to label themselves as lesbians attracted to multiple genders & separating nonbinary ppl via the binary is not cool.
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@Finthefur1
Mspec = multisexual spectrum (attraction to multiple genders)
Bi lesbian is about a bunch of stuff, like having two orientations, but mostly here it's about lesbians (often trans/nbi ones) who are attracted to multiple (often nbi) genders and want to acknowledge that attraction.
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@duckthatremains
Non-exclusive queer attraction to women preserves the historical mono focus of lesbian (women) while allowing queer ppl of any gender to id as lesbian & lesbians attracted to multiple genders to personalize the def how they want. It's inclusive & gender affirming.
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@PinguFeminista
...gender is best represented that way. Some want to be considered part of mono attraction, some don't. Some nbi ppl need multi gender attraction recognized even if their partner ids with a mono orientation. Some will never be okay being included in primarily mono orientations...
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@dgtor_spoof
That doesn't make attraction to multiple genders not attraction to multiple genders. Some ppl feel more affirmed explicitly acknowledging mspec attraction, esp in the context of an orientation that has history primarily focused around a single gender.
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@LunianLesbo
which goes against how the ppl who coined trixic meant it to be used. it was always allowed to be used in conjunction with or alongside lesbian if that's what the nonbinary person using it felt was best for them.
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"enby" is a casual term for anyone iding as nonbinary. Nonbinary is both a gender and an umbrella of genders, or lack of, that aren't exclusively man or woman. Saying it's "only one" is wrong, but not counting nonbinary genders as genders/in multi gender attraction is also wrong
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@Spacentil_
Bigender is under the nonbinary umbrella because bigender ppl aren't exclusively either man or woman. Unless you're only talking about monogender nonbinary ppl (or multigender ppl who do not id as nonbinary) multigender ppl do fall under the wider nonbinary umbrella label.
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@MorgieMango0199
Attraction to women and more than one nonbinary gender falls under various common definitions of bi.
Outside of separatist "no men" type definitions many definitions don't prohibit attraction to genders beyond woman, it simply doesn't matter.
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@duckthatremains
idk why you'd limit this question to men, ppl of many different genders can a preference for women yet are additionally attracted to other genders and still choose id as lesbian.
but, like, there's no way to stop the man and historically some men have chosen to id as lesbian.
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@alyssacxst
@Caughtln_4k
genders that are partially man or woman or a mix of man and woman are still considered nonbinary because they're not entirely man or woman (as the western concept of the gender binary only accounts for being entirely one or the other).
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@ZicaLaser
They never universally had rigid definitions. The differences are generally a focus on men, a focus on women, and a focus on multiple genders, but there have always been overlaps and grey areas.
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@polybenzimidazo
not everyone agrees with or uses the new "nonman" definition. historically there has been a wide gender variety in, especially inclusive, lesbian spaces that rely on self inclusion rather than strict adherence to any definition.
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@Kolev_of_Astora
@Monkey2Bubble
I mean, it kinda comes down to how binary locked your thinking is, like thinking man & woman are opposites. If you're allowing a bunch of ppl who aren't women to id as lesbian/be included in lesbian attraction without issue then, yeah, basically anyone can already be a lesbian.
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@PinguFeminista
There are a lot of grey areas, wiggle room, and options when it comes to incorporating other genders into historically primarily mono and binary spaces in gender affirming ways. Treating all nonbinary genders as though they don't count like the binary genders isn't a solution.
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@froug_16
@eirianqueer
so nonbinary lesbians can only like women?
and binary lesbians can only like women?
so... it would be okay for a nonbinary lesbian to like a binary lesbian, but the binary lesbian could no longer id as lesbian if they like the nonbinary lesbian back, correct?
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@AKUSATSUU
@MangledNatalia
that's okay. maybe some day you will and you'll want to reflect on how you conceptualize other genders in relation to the binary and work on your exorsexism. <3
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@Mrs_Pink_Bee
many nbi ppl use singular they *because* it's neutral and unspecified. before knowing what someone's pronouns are singular they should be used as to not assume gender. the og tweet is about cis people using singular they regardless of ppls actual pronouns and refusing to change.
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@CasperTheMaine
So everyone who ids as a woman gets brain scanned? What happens if their brain isn't similar enough in structure?
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@FigWineshine
@bludbugzz
*includes some nonbinary people who choose to include themselves in the orientation and/or attraction set.
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@St_Erased
the idea that lesbian is about no men rather than liking women comes from separatists/terfs/radfems/etc. they say men when they mean trans women, just like saying no men in women's sports/bathrooms/spaces/etc. it's a dogwhistle, which is why terfs & transphobes come running.
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@trotzflocke
the diff is L.= primarily attraction to women
L. og meant wlw (exclusive or not), then separatists/terfs/radfems kicked out women that had anything to do w/ men (this is why "nonman" is a sketchy redefining), erasing the gender & orientation variety historically found in L.
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@chinesetylerg
nah. people should be able to acknowledge their attraction to multiple genders.
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@blissfulheavens
@LunianLesbo
but it's also bi. and a number of other mspec orientations. there's an overlap and some ppl choose to use more than one applicable label.
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@yuri_cocaine
@liliwenss
Nonbinary men, nonbinary women, ppl who are both man & woman, & ppl who are man/woman & one or more nonbinary genders have always been part of the nonbinary umbrella.
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@V3kundalinee
Any number of genders. Nonbinary is both a gender and an umbrella term for genders, and lack of, that aren't exclusively man or woman.
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@vilburzco
@juniperjunejuni
Knowing that keeping "men" out of women's spaces (like lesbianism)/sports/bathrooms/etc primarily targets trans women is kinda transphobia 101.
Even if lesbian did mean "nmlnm" it would still be mspec & should be allowed to be labeled as such, often for gender affirming reasons.
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@VentilianVexus
@_d3adf1sh_
This not only assumes that all multi gender attraction includes men, but also that lesbian must be defined by separatist "no men" type defs & that everyone is okay with lesbians being attracted to some men as long as they erase their manhood by primarily iding as nonbinary.
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@monstercollie
some people can enjoy sex without experiencing sexual attraction. hypersexuality is a disorder focused around sex (doesn't require attraction). anyone can feel various ways about sex with or without sexual attraction.
none of those contradict "little to no sexual attraction".
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@JoyMoone
@polybenzimidazo
imo, picking out a bulletproof and easily policeable definition supposedly based on "innate aspects" when those aspects are often personally grey and flexible and systemically influenceable is a bit cart before the horse and antithetical to the queer experience.
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@ALMlGHTYSHOGUN
no, if a nonbinary person feels like their gender is compatible w/ an orientation they can use it. even if lesbian & gay were exclusive (outside of things like political lesbians/terfs/radfems/etc imposing restrictions they aren't) a nbi gender may have layers you can't see.
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@popham_neil
@BareReality
@mailplus
so it's hypocritical to wear underwear if you don't experience sexual attraction. makes sense.
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@kaIeberry
@annoyinginclus
"not a man" isn't a single gender. stop erasing nonbinary people's genders / shoving all our genders under "not a man". it's exorsexist.
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@qiyuanjun
@LunianLesbo
Separatism, bimisia, and a good amount of exorsexism. So many ppl (who "include" some nonbinary genders) pulling this line have no concept of the way nonbinary ppl & bi/mspec ppl have been talking about gender for decades. They're regressive, dismissive, & don't want to be mspec.
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@chaotral_arts
@RealSandstone
@FangedFaggot
Both "non man" & "non masculine" (different gender groups) cover multiple genders so if someone is attracted to more than one of those genders then that falls under a common definition of bi (attraction to more than one gender) and can id as bi and lesbian if they want to.
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@mothmaticz
@manlikingdork
@SaferPositive
then that (new, not woman focused definition) is multi gender attraction, which is the definition of mspec orientations, so there's no reason why people can't id as mspec lesbian if they want to specifically acknowledge that attraction to multiple genders
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@horadeav3nturas
Not all lesbians adopted or currently use separatist based "no men" type definitions. And no orientation is locked into being perioriented.
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@L0NGTALLWEEKEND
It's perfectly valid for some lesbians to be attracted to more than one gender and choose to use any/all labels applicable to their attraction. Lesbian has never been exclusively monosexual.
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@jaaebie
nonbinary is both a gender and an umbrella for multiple genders. treating nonbinary genders as less less real or valid or capable of affecting orientation is exorsexist. including other genders in every/any orientation just because they're not the two main genders is exorsexist.
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@duckthatremains
lesbian orientation is primarily focused on attraction to one gender (woman), mspec orientations are primarily focused on attraction to multiple genders.
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@rosanoren
@6syddice
@TdpAtlaToaBcM
@polypearIs
separatist lesbianism excludes men, most other defs focus on attraction to women, often without prohibiting other attraction.
"nonmen" in lesbian context is new & prioritizes the binary genders, an unwelcome & uncomfortable idea for many ppl who aren't exclusively man or woman.
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@heeres_shini
sapphic is colloquially the same as lesbian. treating them as starkly different, and forcing lesbians who don't factor additional attractions into their definition of lesbianism to change labels, is a recent exclusionary phenomenon and doesn't reflect common real life usage.
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@D4mmy1
In america lesbian was the catchall for women who had sex with/loved/were attracted to women (where "woman" wasn't a strictly enforced bio category in queer spaces, there was always some intermingling with gay men and gender blurring) and then starting in the 70s there was a...
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@MLskps
not bi cause it's not for ppl attracted to multiple genders, it's for bi/multigender ppl (ppl with two/multiple genders) who are attracted to one gender.
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@ztrawberrykattz
@kaelin_aether
@hydroc_ty
That's a very recent def of lesbian. Most of lesbian's history is focused around women attracted to women (tho the community has welcomed gender variety). Not all nbi ppl want to be included or want to be included as a "nonman". Adding bi is another way to include other genders.
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@duckthatremains
not all lesbians adopted or currently use separatist type definitions and their primary focus is love of and relationships with women. this is where you get defs like "queer attraction to women". it's a reworking of how inclusive lesbian communities already function.
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@irisnightwtchr
Varioriented ppl exist. And if someone falls under the definitions of more than one orientation then they can use whichever ones resonate with them.
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@motorcycleyuri
@2Krabb4u
so lesbians can like multiple genders but if they additionally id as liking multiple genders then they're not lesbians?
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@idkwatname2usee
What lesbians do is not for me to police. Historically, outside of separatism, lesbian has focused on attraction to women, often regardless of other attractions.
What lesbians do also doesn't matter wrt correct definition of mspec orientations.
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@cIairewaIsh
@talicide
Because it's literally never been like that. Bi & other mspec orientations have acknowledged that more then two genders exist for decades. Gender specific multi gender attraction that treats nbi genders equal to binary genders has existed for a long time in mspec communities.
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@AKUSATSUU
@MangledNatalia
your interest in using a man exclusionary definition of lesbian has no bearing on acknowledging attraction to multiple genders. in fact, it proves my point about mspec community history. polysexual has been nonbinary inclusive some but not all gender attraction for over a decade.
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@HexInvasion
The most unclear thing is why ppl decided to reduce the inclusion already present in the lesbian community rather than embrace it fully. Inclusive lesbian spaces already welcomed all ppl of other genders who wanted to be included before the "nmlnm" def started being pushed.
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@Peaskachu
Lots of ppl who aren't women choose to id as lesbian. The lesbian community has always had spaces that welcomed ppl of other genders, even tho the focus of lesbianism revolves around women.
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@averbee_
@crissiton
The OED currently uses "engaging in sexual activity with other women; sexually or romantically attracted (esp. wholly or largely) to other women", so not just exclusive. Merriam Webster currently uses "woman who is sexually or romantically attracted to other women", no exclusive.
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@m0thflower
No one, including trans women, *has* to use multi gender attracted labels if they're attracted to multiple genders, but if someone *is* attracted to multiple genders then they should be *allowed* to use any labels that apply to them. It's not a one size fits all solution.
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@Star_Blossom08
So masculine genders are excluded, but not man related genders, got it. You previously mentioned no men.
Even without those genders it's still multiple genders, which falls under definitions of bi, so some lesbians may choose to id with both bi & lesbian.
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@cyb3rstarl1ght
@ConklesToTheMax
So you get to redefine bi to require attraction to men and/or deny that nonbinary ppl can have genders that count wrt multi gender attraction and/or deny that ppl can use multiple labels, but ppl affected by that monosexism & exorsexism can't comment on it unless they're lesbian.
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@galaxychildart
Even using this definition if a lesbian is attracted to more than one "nonman" gender that's attraction to multiple genders and fulls under the multi attracted spectrum (mspec)
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@AKUSATSUU
Why shut up when I literally am a nonbinary person who is an other gender who is simply pointing out that ppl like me exist & our genders should be taken into account & respected & acknowledged when it comes to orientation definitions instead of erased & shoved into the binary?
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@L0NGTALLWEEKEND
Monosexual is not the opposite of polyamory. Monosexual is attraction to one gender. Polyamory is having multiple relationships at once. Polyam ppl can be monosexual.
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@dazaismybf
folks changing the def of lesbian so that genders that are entirely unrelated to woman in any way are included because some ppl of those genders chose to include themselves over the years, but refuse to do the same for trans men when that's part of the same genderweird history
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